Sunday, January 6, 2013

Demon Possession and Spiritual Warfare

Demon Possession and Spiritual Warfare:  

This is a bit long, but I thought it would be interesting to share. I have seen people who pretend to be Christians or behave as they were but in reality they couldn't be further from God.  

I know a few people like this and this shed a lot of light and truth.  Let me know what you think?

Are there demons in this world? Yes. Can true Christians be demon possessed? No. There is not one instance in the Bible where Jesus or his disciples cast demons out of true believers. In fact Jesus tells us we have all power over demons.

"Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you." Luke 10:19

How can something we have power over, turn around and possess us? It can't. However, there are examples in the Bible of people being demon possessed who may have been saved at one time, but who are now spiritually lost. Judas, one of Jesus' own disciples is an example of this. The Bible actually says the devil entered into him.

Luke 22:3 "Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve."

John 13:27 "As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him."

Judas is a prime example of someone who can appear to have it together spiritually, and can actually have severed their relationship with Christ and be involved in the evil forces of this world to the point of possession.

A Christian who has a relationship with Christ, and has not denied Christ or turned to another gospel other than what God teaches us in His word, has the protection spoken of in Luke. This doesn't mean true believers won't be attacked. While we cannot be possessed by demons, we are still subject to the temptations of the flesh.

Peter had many problems that people who believe Christians can be demon possessed would say can only be resolved by having demons cast out of him. However, Jesus told Peter that the devil desired to have the opportunity to "sift" him like wheat. Then He prayed that Peter's faith in Jesus would not fail and that after he came through the temptation, he would have knowledge he could use to help others weather the temptations of the devil (Luke 22:31,32).

The difference between Peter and Judas is that Jesus prayed for Peter, but He did not pray for Judas. He only told Judas to be quick about what he had decided to do (betray Jesus). Judas had crossed a line in the spirit realm that Peter hadn't crossed, which opened Judas to demon possession.

Christians whose faith is in Christ can be attacked, depressed, oppressed, and tempted, but if we resist the devil, he will flee from us.

James 4:7 "Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Jesus does not violate man's free will. He is pictured in Revelation 3:20 as standing at the door, knocking, waiting for the door to be opened so He can come in. If God, who is all-powerful, cannot violate man's will, demons certainly must honor man's will if they know what the Bible says and follow it. The devil will try like crazy to open that door, but it is ultimately up to us whether we let Satan in or not.

People will often use personal experiences to substantiate claims that Christians can be possessed instead of using the Bible as the ultimate authority on the subject. As a result, they try to cast out works of the flesh thinking they are demons. Until we are given our new bodies and are living eternally with Christ, we will always have to contend with our sinful nature. Through prayer and the help of the Holy Spirit we can persevere and overcome these attacks. It is important to not become so demon conscious and so focused on warding off attacks that we forget about Jesus. It is through Him that we have power over evil, so making Christ and his teachings the center of our lives will naturally give us strength. It is when we fall away from our faith in Christ that we are in danger.

Saying you are a Christian does not necessarily mean you are saved.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heaven."

There are many people in this world who go to church every Sunday, tithe as they are supposed to, have the right friends, and are good at bragging about their righteousness and the works they perform in the name of the church. Unfortunately, some of these same people can be heard saying things like, "I believe all paths lead to God. It doesn't really matter if you believe in Christ or Buddha as long as you do good things". They read the right Christian books, and read their Bible from time to time, but when it comes right down to it, they deny the saving grace of Christ, they do not believe what the Bible says, and they, willingly or not, encourage others to follow false prophets and religions. These people open all kinds of doors for Satan. They put out the welcome mat, make a pot of coffee, and tell the devil to come right on in. It is these "Christians" who, like Judas, can be possessed by demons, who will be attacked relentlessly, and who desperately need to believe in the Bible and have a right relationship with Jesus Christ. If only these people could see that God promises us power over the devil and his minions, they need only accept it and no longer turn their backs on it. It is the believer's job to share this with them.

56 comments:

Jersey McJones said...

You know, Leticia, this reminds me of people who are somehow bothered by clean energy. I ask myself, "What, are you pro-pollution???"

Are you anti-Good Works?

JMJ

christian soldier said...

Good news about your Father!! I'm so glad!
RE: this post:
My take-if a person CALLS him-/her-self a Christian and then brags about works or self piety - he / she is NOT a follower of Christ!
Carol-CS

Silverfiddle said...

Well stated Leticia!

dmarks said...

I can't object to a message post topic that puts the "Tubular Bells" music in my head.

------------

As for clean energy, I am a big fan of it. Especially clean coal.

Now, I'm not sure that there is so much clean or sustainable about wind and solar, which requires rare earth mines in China.

------------

And yes very well stated Leticia!

Teresa said...

Excellent post, Leticia!

highboy said...

Very well written. Glad you're back. This is my first day back to blogging as well. Just had another baby about 6 months ago so just now getting things calmed down. I can't blog regularly like most of you guys. LOL. Too much going on.

Leticia said...

Jersey, umm...no, lol! I love good works and clean energy, and yep coal. Goodness.

Carol, Amen, sister!

Silver, thanks, my friend.

dmarks, "tubular bells" that made me smile! Thanks!

Teresa, thank you. I pondered on sharing and decided what the heck! And did it.

highboy, CONGRATULATIONS!! Yeah, with a new baby in the house, no time for blogging or play. It's all baby now. But glad to see you back! So happy for you!

dmarks said...

By the way, Silverfiddle? Is it true that your blog now blocks regular Blogspot login IDs? I didn't see any way to get to it without creating a twitter account or something else I've gotten by in blogs without needing.

Sorry, Leticia. It's very off topic!

Liberalmann said...

Leticia said: 'I have seen people who pretend to be Christians or behave as they were but in reality they couldn't be further from God.'

Just reading your posts and comments from wingnuts proves this. They're the biggest hypocrites out there.

Ducky's here said...

Is there an exorcism scheduled.

Jersey McJones said...

Leticia, you love coal???

Really???

Do you know what it's like to mine coal? What it does to the miners and the environment, and all God's creatures living near and around that mine?

Could you imagine raising your kids in a coal miners town?

Near a coal mine?

Are you really for that???

Wouldn't it be nicer for all concerned anywhere if we had cleaner, less destructive, consistent sources of energy?

What's your problem with that?

It can be done, ya' know.

What the heck is your problem with that?

Do you think God personally demands we burn fossil fuels? Does the Bible even support the notion of "fossil" feuls?

Leticia. Think.

JMJ

Always On Watch said...

some of these same people can be heard saying things like, "I believe all paths lead to God. It doesn't really matter if you believe in Christ or Buddha as long as you do good things".

Obviously, these syncretists don't understand the message of the Lord's Word.

highboy said...

The Bible is silent on the burning of fossil fuels, but if we're just talking reality and facts, we're able to burn clean coal, and the "clean energy" that liberals keep harping about has yet to manifest itself despite literally trillions of dollars spent on research over the past couple of decades.

dmarks said...

High: the green energy scam is all about Obama hiking the debt by wasting money to fund factories in Europe and China. And what do we get to show for it in the US? A $40,000 car that the consumers don't need.

dmarks said...

JMJ: seems you hold the people who mine coal and the families of these people in great contempt.

Ducky's here said...

No dmarks, the contmept is saved for the suckers who have bought the "clean coal" nonsense.

highboy said...

The "clean coal" nonsense is based reliable fact, rather than environmental lobbyist liberal b.s. Let me know when those pie in the sky alternate energy research projects we've been funding for decades actually produces something humans can use. I know liberals don't mind spending a budget that could fund an entire country on useless projects that yield no fruit but seriously....

Right Truth said...

I think the article is right on target.

Debbie
Right Truth
http://www.righttruth.typepad.com

Leticia said...

dmarks, you can still comment at Silver's with blogspot. I have.

Lib, Jesus is the Light of the world and He knows His own and we do not walk in darkness but in truth because He is truth. This post was used to expose many that "pretend" to be believers, but are not. You do not believe in God therefore, you couldn't possibly comprehend what this post was about. I am not a hypocrite, I will shout it out to the world that Jesus is my Savior.

Jersey, coal is a natural resource and it brings income to families that need it. I have family and friends that work those mines, as long as regulations are followed properly, they can live healthy lives. And I am glad for it.

Ducky, I don't know, do you want Jesus to be the Lord of your life? Or was that a rhetorical question? Exorcisms are not required to ask the Lord to be your Savior. :)

AOW, yes, that is exactly the point. They cannot fathom the truth, because there is only ONE way.

Thanks, Debbie. I thought it was awesome, too. It brought clarity for me in ways you couldn't possibly imagine. God is so good!

Highboy, you won't win, but I congratulate you for trying. I am so glad you are back!!

highboy said...

@Leticia: That is where you're wrong. Its not about "winning" or "losing" because I already won. Facts are facts, regardless of how liberals want to dismiss them. The fact that we have clean coal capabilities is as dead an issue as water being wet.

@Liberalmann: the glaring and sweeping generalization of as you call them, "wing nuts", just proves the hypocrisy of your own liberal ideology. Free speech, unless it offends you. Don't be a bigot, unless its against Christian Republicans. Show tolerance to all, except those who disagree with you. Thanks for playing.

Leticia said...

highboy, sounds good to me.

dmarks said...

Highboy: remember, this is the same Liberalmann who was actually happy about the Connecticut school shooting because it might help his agenda of getting rid of a basic Constitutional right for law-abiding citizens.

Silverfiddle said...

Jersey's comments always crack me up.

Jersey: Can you imagine you and your family freezing in your home?

Have you even mined coal?

I come from a coal mining region. It is dirty and dangerous, but so is living in a progressive-created inner city hellhole.

highboy said...

dmarks: that doesn't surprise me. Liberals are all about dead babies.

Most Rev. Gregori said...

Excellent post Leticia. I had not known about your dad, as I have been away, and then when I returned home I was tied up with the shooting incident in which two volunteer firefighters were killed and two injured. This happened in my hometown, two miles from my home. I am glad that your is okay, I shall keep him in my prayers. God bless.

Leticia said...

Abouna, thank you my dear friend.

dmarks said...

Highboy: Babies and coal miners. Two of the groups to draw the hate and ire of the leftists in these comments.

Leticia said...

dmarks, of course.

William Stout said...

One of the best texts on the subject of possession is the book entitled "Hostage to the Devil" by Malachi Martin. It covers exorcisms conducted by the Catholic Church and the case of Michael Strong is particularly interesting. It is available in paperback and most likely any good library should have a copy.

Magpie said...

Rat-crazy.

"Demons"... Seriously?
Demons??

Garbage.

highboy said...

Thanks for the input Magpie. That was really productive. Next time just stick your fingers in your ears while going "na na na na na" and you'll really be unstoppable in a debate.

Leticia said...

William, thank you for letting me know about that book. Should make an interesting read.

Magpie, they exist whether you want to believe it or not. One way or the other you will learn there are angels and demons.

Highboy, nice comeback! :)

Magpie said...

“Thanks for the input Magpie.”

You’re welcome.
I’m still flabbergasted that any sane adult in a modern society would believe in demons. .

“Magpie, they exist whether you want to believe it or not.”

No they don’t. There is no basis for believing that, and my ‘wanting’ to believe or not has nothing to do with it.
Either something is - or isn’t. There is no basis for any rational person to believe in demons.
Or fairies.

As it happens I have a personal experience that has made me more wary of this sort of thing….
I was nearly killed by Aum Supreme Truth – an(other) apocalyptic cult – in Japan in 1995. Fortunately I missed the train. That was a bit like being late for the plane on 9/11.
You guys remind me of their creed. Seriously.
It’s not Christianity as in the sense of compassion and love and doing good to others and all that. It is about believing that you are somehow special and everyone else will suffer.
And maybe some part of you gets off on the idea that will suffer, because it reinforces your self-perception of specialness.

“One way or the other you will learn there are angels and demons.”

No… I don’t think I’ll ever be young enough as to believe in fairies again.
Still quite fond of watching Peter Pan, but that’s because I like the pirates.

Pirates are real, I’ll grant you that.

Teresa said...

Leticia, here is a good article where the writer explains why he believes in demons. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markdroberts/series/do-demons-exist/

Magpie,

Do you believe in God? If not, then that explains why don't believe in the existence in demons. If you don't believe in a supernatural being that is responsible for all the good in this world then it wouldn't be possible for you to believe in evil and the devil.

Teresa said...

Plus, to believe in God you have to believe in something greater than all of humanity, greater then thy self. The person has to display humility, have faith in something other than one's self and rid oneself of arrogance of thinking that humans know best. Only Our Father in heaven knows best.

jez said...

God belief is a kind of arrogance though, isn't it? To admit that you don't know god -- that's humble.

Teresa said...

Since it seems by "know God" you mean to have a belief in God, and have a personal relationship with Him, No it isn't arrogant. To believe in something greater than self - which God is - is indeed the opposite. It shows a selflessness and that you are humble.

If you mean by "don't know God" that none of us knows Him as has had a physical relationship with Him like we do with humans you are correct in saying that. Those of us who have a belief in God know God in the sense that we follow His teachings in the Bible and follow His example. He knows each of us better than any human being knows himself.

highboy said...

"You’re welcome.
I’m still flabbergasted that any sane adult in a modern society would believe in demons. ."

I'm flabbergasted a sane "rational" adult thinks that 2/3s of the worlds population that believe in a Creator are some how irrational. If you're going to lecture people about not being arrogant or "special", maybe look in the mirror at yourself and the handful of people still ludicrous enough to think life is an accident and that the rest of the entire human race since day one all suffer from some delusion. Its hilarious how atheists claim to use reason and intellect to discern their worldview and yet their arguments against the existence of anything supernatural are borderline infantile.


Leticia said...

Magpie, my heart breaks for you because I know that God is real, He touched my heart and my life. I could give you many testimonies of what He has done in my life, and I also almost died, but He pulled me back from death and I am by His Grace.

Teresa is absolutely correct, it takes faith to believe in something that you cannot see, but you can feel His presence if you ask Him. But ask without wavering, believe.

Demons do exist, because there is evil in the world and Satan is real just as God and the Lord Jesus is real. You cannot deny what has been proven time and time again. The bible is irrefutable.

Jez, what arrogance? We know God is real, because He has moved and touched our hearts, our souls, our spirits and our lives. His love is tangible and it cannot be denied, it is very real, just as Satan is very real.

The more people deny the existence of God the more they believe that He does is exist or you wouldn't argue so hard to disprove Him.

I believe for most atheists and agnostics, etc. Refuse to believe there is a God because their lives would be changed.

God is about free-will, you can choose to believe in Him or not, but it doesn't change the fact that He is real.

Highboy, exactly. We believe because we have encountered God, we have felt His love engulf us, covering us and moving within us and we just can feel the joy that He alone can give. It is a gift, a beautiful gift.

When Christians face difficult times, we have Him to turn to for comfort, for peace no matter the outcome, we know He is in full control.

jez said...

More people believe sincerely in a God that contradicts yours than share your belief in the xian God. Your belief that you are right entails your belief that they are wrong. Maybe arrogant is the wrong word, but it's not badly wrong.

Highboy demonstrates arrogance quite nicely. :)

Leticia: Let's all agree to be honest about what we do and don't believe in, and in return let's take each others' declarations at face value.

Nate said...

Believe that demons exist? Of course I do; I've read too many authors whom I respect (God, for one) who tell us they're real not to.

(found this through Theresa, by the way)

Leticia said...

Jez, there are those that claim to be "Believers" but are not, I was one of them, until the Lord changed my life, forever. I cannot nor will I ever accept anything but my beloved Heavenly Father, My Adonai. How I wish you knew Him and then you would understand our passion and love for the one True and Living God.

Btw, sorry for all the typos, everyone. Bad habit.

Nate, welcome!! Teresa is an awesome woman of God. And I agree with you. There are too many instances of angel and demonic influence in our world. We all could share stories.

Those that don't believe, we just need to continue to pray for them.

Teresa said...

Leticia you inspire me the way you have so much zeal for God and the way you are on fire for your faith. You are an amazing Sister in Christ.

Magpie said...

Teresa,

You ask me if I believe in God.

I infer that you are a devout believer as is Leticia. You believe in God and the fact that you believe is sufficient of itself.

But that is not the paradigm that I live by. I am a rational person.
If there is no proof - then I can ‘only’ believe or suspect or wonder – I can’t ‘know’.
Believing and knowing are not the same thing.

No matter what challenges there are to what you believe, you will not stop believing it. That is how religion works, it answers everything internally. It only permits the questions it can answer and treats all other modes of thought with utmost hostility and ultimately demands your absolute, unquestioning obedience and servility. And then it has a civil war with other versions of itself.

Religion permits a priest – who may never have had a woman in his life, never have been a father, never have visited the places I have visited, never have seen the things I have seen – to be as presumptuous as to tell me how to live. It’s utterly preposterous.

God might exist, but there is no proof that makes sense to me.
Moreover…. And this is the bit you will REALLY struggle with:
I don’t care.
The question is artificial. It requires that a lot of people choose to believe in God in order for it to have cultural and social relevance anyway.

i.e. I would not trouble myself with the question but for all the people like yourself for whom it so important.

It’s also not so much a question as a challenge – however I answer will not please you…. unless I give exactly the same answer you would give.

If I say “no”…. then immediately you begin to have dark thoughts about me and connect me up with everyone else who doesn’t give your preferred answer.

At this point you might say “oh just read the Bible”, but sorry that is not what I call proof.
The Bible describes a tiny portion of the world, historiographically. Interesting window into what people were thinking in one small part of the world a long time ago… but that’s it. And there is no shortage of other myths, other cultures… many of whom also thought they were special and could speak for all mankind.

Demons and angels… no proof. Nothing that could even lead me to consider it as a ‘possibility awaiting proof’. It does not make sense.

All I have to do is call the same concepts something else… like “bogeymen and fairies” and the dependence of the concepts on archetypes designed to frighten weak-minded or intellectually vulnerable people becomes immediately apparent. The power of the concept of demons or angels is in the language and the bottomless pit of fear created by religions to encourage submission when all other means fail.

And yet… I do not have a completely negative view of religion in practice.
Many church organisations engage in socially productive and benevolent activity with no strings attached. They help people with practical problems of homelessness or drug-dependence or problem gambling….etc and do not demand submission in return. I respect that.
What you guys engage in however is quite different. It’s fundamentalism. And that I am opposed to because it will not live and let live.
Sooner or later it shows up at my door and demands that I conform to it.

I’ve seen and been through some pretty intense stuff. No god helped me. No god helped the people who died either in front of me of out of my sight. There were no demons, there were no angels. And if what happened to them was what God wants, then I sure as heck do not want God.

Teresa said...

Magpie,

I don't think you are dark, evil, or anything of the sort. But what I will say is I think you are limited in your thinking as far as the world and what you think the definition of "reason", "proof", and others. I could say the same thing to you about no matter what you hear about religion and God your will not believe because that would take faith. But don't you have faith in historical fact as well? I mean you obviously haven't seen what persons did in the centuries before us with regards to math and science or other subjects but you believe their theories or whatever else or in them even though you haven't seen them. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John have accounts of Jesus' life, telling stories about His life but I haven't seen in the physical sense but I still believe. Its just like history, It is history. I may not have seen God in physical sense but I sure have felt His presence in my life.

Just as you think I am wrong in certain beliefs of mine I believe you are wrong in certain beliefs that you have. It isn't a matter of you giving the wrong answer. Or me the right answer. Or vice versa. It is a matter of how the modern world has changed certain meanings and distorted them over time and some people believe those distorted meanings or changed viewpoints instead of keeping with the true definition of this or that or thinking the changed viewpoint about this or that.

I am wondering have you had a problem with an authority figure at some point in your life?

I am stretched for time right now but I do have more of a response. Will finish later today.

highboy said...

@Magpie:

1.You can call yourself "rational" and you may be, but its a subjective concept. There is no absolute "rational" so the standard atheist "its not rational" doesn't carry any weight.
2. Your accusation that religion treats all other "modes" with hostility is patently false. Please prove this sweeping accusation or at least demonstrate it.
3. What we "engage in", or the "fundamentalism" you accuse us of engaging in, does pretty much nothing you accuse it of. You're chalk full of the standard hyperbole and sensational accusations but so far you're not getting any point across other than that you don't believe. Duh. We get that. I'm not trying to convince you God exists. I'm demanding evidence that belief in God, even the fundamentalist kind you abhor, is the irrational travesty you claim it is. I want an example of Christian fundamentalism demanding you conform to it. I want you to explain how your overrall implication that 2/3s of mankind that believe in a Creator all suffer from some delusion only you and a small portion of the world are free from is not the height of arrogance. For example, on my own blog you'll see a video where two professors bicker about whether or not God exists. You'll notice one is a nuclear physics professor at M.I.T. Is he irrational? Delusional? Or maybe, just maybe, the question as to whether or not God exists doesn't come down to scientific evidence as you well know. Demanding natural proof of something beyond nature is nothing more than circular reasoning.

Leticia said...

Teresa, you have no idea what that means to me. Thank you.

Magpie, I don't think you are a dark person and have any negative thoughts about you.

I know you won't believe me, God was there when you saw your friends dying, His angels were with them guiding them home, and they suffered no longer.

God gave every person free will and it is man that makes the decisions to kill, hate, love, steal, or whatever. If God did not give us free will, then we would be robots with no thoughts or feelings of our own. God didn't want that.

Yes, things happen to good people and to bad, that's life, God never promised we would live in a bed of roses without thorns. He said He would be with us, as we went through the pain of our trials. And believe I have had some terrifying doozies, that now I am able to speak about, it was God that saved me, and yet, I still denied Him. Until I was 31, it was a divine intervention. That's all I can say. :)

highboy said...

The fact of the matter is that while skeptics pretend to be noble while the crux of their arguments against the existence of a God is to simply chant "its irrational" over and over again as if that ends the debate. It doesn't, not even close. Its easy to be skeptic and take pot shots at conclusions drawn by others in regards to life's great questions while positing none of your own.

Its a simple fact every human being since the beginning of humanity has struggled with origin, meaning, morality, and destiny. That's just a fact. A skeptic's answer to all of these is "I have no clue, I just know its not God". All the while they claim the belief in God (or demons) "makes no sense". As compelling an argument as "that makes no sense" is, it doesn't detract that perfectly logical people have used that logic they possess to conclude that the world around them was created. Skeptics can use all the hyperbole they want, and compare belief in gods and demons to fairies, but it makes as much sense as believing intelligent life was formed from unintelligent nonlife.

Leticia said...

Highboy, excellent points.

Magpie said...

“I am wondering have you had a problem with an authority figure at some point in your life?”

No Teresa. I didn’t.
I like the rest of what you said there though.

Highboy,

I actually said “God might exist”.
Are you prepared to concede God might not exist? Somehow I doubt it.

Believing in demons and angels is not a thing that sits well with me. Once you start to believe there are supernatural forces running around people’s view of the world becomes dangerously simplistic. You’re believing in magic basically. I don’t fear the consequences of that as regards you personally - because you’re a sophisticated person living in an advanced society - but there are people in this world who will murder on the belief that their victim is a witch.

About fundamentalism… if you believe the Bible including the Old Testament is literally true in every aspect… then you’re deluded.
You believe in Adam and Eve. You believe the world is only a few thousand years old even though the oil that runs your car took far longer than that to form. You believe that Noah saved every species – including those that were completely unknown to the Bible’s authors.
All of which I could get along with except that fundamentalism also has a very militant edge…

I posed a question to another Australian on this blog once – he’s quite an unusual Australian (thankfully) who likes to ingratiate himself to Right wingers – on the subject of abortion:
Words to the effect that some women who seek abortions are barely more than children themselves and are frightened out of their wits. They may have been raped. They may have been raped by their own father. And I asked him if he could understand their plight and his response was;
“You don’t care about your baby – then I don’t care about you”.

In other words… he doesn’t give a crap. She could be 13, raped and at risk of dying and he wouldn’t give a damn… as long as his religiously-based personal morality is satisfied. That's fundamentalism.

Jesus saved a woman from being stoned once, I believe...
But this guy would cheerfully throw a pile of bricks in like circumstance. That's fundamentalism.

The hatred of gay people is another example.

Someone within the Australian Christian movement lamented recently that it spends more time and energy trying to block gay marriage than it does trying to counter human trafficking and sexual slavery.

Fundamentalism in all its agenda is about reimagining the world as if it could operate just like it does. It serves itself, not human betterment.
And ultimately, if given the chance, it will kill you if it decides you are…. Well…. ‘Away with the demons’.

highboy said...

@Magpie: I'll try to respond to all your points.

"I actually said “God might exist”.
Are you prepared to concede God might not exist? Somehow I doubt it."

Of course I would. But I have faith that He does. That's why its called faith. And you're demonstrating beautifully again that most of your assertions stem from assumptions.

"You’re believing in magic basically."

So are you. You have no explanation for your origins. You never will. Ever. Science by definition is incapable of explaining those origins, or First Cause. The Big bang for example, is the effect, not the cause, that started the natural order we study. You believe in magic, you simply believe in magic with no magician, making that belief even more illogical. But point of fact, whatever caused the big bang HAS to be supernatural by definition.

"if you believe the Bible including the Old Testament is literally true in every aspect… then you’re deluded."

Prove it. I asked already for you to demonstrate this absolute vision of rationality you think you possess and so far you've not even tried to answer.

As to your points about Genesis:

1. Believing in Adam and Even is no more illogical than believing in any version of the first two humans. At some point Magpie, there were two humans and the reproduced.
2. The Bible doesn't teach the world is only a few thousand years old, and the Hebrew word for day ('yom) has about 25 different meanings when translated to English, all different spans of time. The world could be 14 billion years old and the Bible would still be correct.
3. Evolutionist/atheists are far more militant than any fundy in America. Despite the fact that the scientific theories you and others so nobly defend as "established fact" are mere assumptions you refuse to even consider anything else. Nothing can be taught along side it. I'm not talking about Intelligent design either.

"In other words… he doesn’t give a crap. She could be 13, raped and at risk of dying and he wouldn’t give a damn… as long as his religiously-based personal morality is satisfied. That's fundamentalism."

Because what pro choicers keep ignoring when they refer this debate to the most extreme example they can think of is that life either has an inherent human worth, or it doesn't. It doesn't have inherent value only under certain circumstances. You either believe there is a right to life or you don't. If you disagree that what is inside the womb is a human life, than that is where the debate should begin. You emphasis that "he couldn't give a crap" while ignoring that what is being murdered in your scenario is a human life of equal value to the 13 year old's.

Its also interesting how you attribute this to fundamentalism. I work with an atheist, who also happens to be a right winger, pro life, and it gets on his nerves how left wingers think you have to be a Christian zealot to be against abortion. Rational people from all faiths and nonfaiths are capable of recognizing the right to life.

"But this guy would cheerfully throw a pile of bricks in like circumstance. That's fundamentalism."

More hyperbole, not worth responding to. Meanwhile, you consider people who believe in a literal translation of the Bible to be "deluded". You like science though right? Give me the scientific odds that so many millions of people are "deluded". Give me the odds that 2/3s of the world's population that believe in a Creator are "deluded" and that you and the handful of atheist/agnostics whose answers to all of life's tough questions are "I don't know, I just know its not God" are correct and then get back to me.

highboy said...

"The hatred of gay people is another example."

And your rant continues to degenerate. While its true there are small fringe groups like Westboro that openly hate gays, you're simply talking nonsense. If you're referring to the idea that Christians think being gay is sinful, than you have just changed the definition of hate. If being against the legalization of gay marriage is "hate" than you've just changed the definition of hate.

If the Australian Christians are trying harder to stop gay marriage than sexual slavery, it hardly makes your point that fundamentalist Christianity is to blame or "hates gays". Fundamentalism is a belief, not an action. Can it lead to action? Sure. But every stance you take on life is based on a belief. A belief in what you think is right and wrong, and your beliefs are just as subjective as anyone else's. Just because you don't attach "Jesus" to those beliefs doesn't make them any less potentially dangerous or any more rational. Stalin didn't believe in God either. They're still to this day counting his death toll. See that? Any belief can lead to dangerous action, be it Christian, Muslim, or simply an atheist.

Magpie said...

“You have no explanation for your origins.”

Yes I do. My daddy loved my mummy very much.

But maybe you mean the origins of humans… I take it then that you DO indeed believe in Adam and Eve…. Tragic.
At worst, even if evolution did not explain it – even though it does – then you are taking a made-up answer in place of the answer being unknown.

“Prove it.”

No, no,… YOU prove this ancient collection of fairy tales – every single one of them - is true. You believe it all. Therefore you must have a good reason…

But you don’t. You just choose to believe it, because that’s the religion in your part of the world.

“different meanings when translated to English, all different spans of time”

Oh great… So you don’t actually know what the heck it means, but you believe it anyway. Brilliant.

“Evolutionist/atheists are far more militant than any fundy in America”

Oh excuse me while I roll all over the floor laughing.
Do any atheists or evolutionists think some imaginary being is going to send them to hell to suffer for all eternity for not believing evolution is a credible thesis?
The only militancy I personally have is that I don’t want your religion being stuck down my children’s throats, or my freedoms curtailed because your religion has a problem with it.
You could pray to the tooth fairy 24 hours a day for all I care.

“While its true there are small fringe groups like Westboro that openly hate gays”

Hatred of gays is not a small fringe thing. Don’t dismiss something as pervasive as that is. A majority of Americans are religious to some degree and religion is the most powerful vehicle for the propagation of hate ever invented – INVENTED – by mankind.
Maybe you should pay more attention to what gets posted about gay people on this site.

There is very little difference between what you believe – based on all of the above – and what the WBC does. Your concepts of the universe are FUNDAMENTALLY the same. You just have better manners than they do.

“Stalin didn't believe in God either.”

So what?
Oh… your point is that atheists have been known to do evil things?
Religion – whether as prime mover or justification – has been the cause of more violence, persecution and war than any other mode of human thought all through history.
Let’s not get into a pissing contest there. Religion wins the blood games, hands down.
People don’t form cults around the laws of physics and then murder their own congregations. That’s the sort of thing Jim Jones did. Did he believe in God?

“Any belief can lead to dangerous action”

You can have an accident in any moving car too. But your chances of an accident are worse in one that has faulty steering and no brakes. Religion has no brakes.

Leticia herself once justified the enslavement, rape and massacre of a whole tribe – as a attested in that book you think is 100% true - based on being ‘disobedient to God’.

The only circumstance imaginable that I would ever do you harm personally… is if there was a clear and present danger that you were about to do it to me or mine.

You on the other hand would cheerfully kill me if you believed your deity told you to do so.

Or… would you be…. ‘disobedient’?

highboy said...

WOW. Magpie. Thanks for demonstrating how ignorant atheist liberals like you can be. I'll try to address your drivel as best I can but the infantile logic used here is pretty hard to even respond to. Here goes:

"But maybe you mean the origins of humans… I take it then that you DO indeed believe in Adam and Eve…. Tragic.
At worst, even if evolution did not explain it – even though it does – then you are taking a made-up answer in place of the answer being unknown."

Oh, you mean the ape like ancestor we supposedly evolved from though we have no record of it and haven't observed it yet? Gotcha. But you obviously missed the point. Evolution doesn't contradict an Adam and Eve. At some point, there were only two humans and they procreated.

"No, no,… YOU prove this ancient collection of fairy tales – every single one of them"

Now I know I'm talking to a teenager. See, YOU made the declaration, the accusation, that belief in what we believe in meant I was deluded. YOU prove YOUR claim. My belief is faith and I never claimed to be able to prove it. See the difference? I haven't made a case for God yet in this little exchange, but you're so blinded by your militant (thanks for proving my point) war on religion that you can't even comprehend what you're reading anymore. YOU prove that not only I but 2/3s of the world's population are deluded and irrational. You made the statement. You back it up. Sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting it over and over again isn't proof.

"Oh great… So you don’t actually know what the heck it means, but you believe it anyway. Brilliant."

So you're just dodging the fact that you've been proven to have no clue about ancient Biblical literature but rejected it anyway, and you're totally dodging the point that the Bible doesn't contradict the scientific theory that the world is 14 billion years old, making your previous accusation completely false.

"Do any atheists or evolutionists think some imaginary being is going to send them to hell to suffer for all eternity for not believing evolution is a credible thesis?"

No, and neither do Christians. Unless you have some Christian doctrine in front of you that says believing in an evolutionary theory is hellworthy? Which of course you don't. More hyperbole. What you atheists do have though, is a cute little "there was nothing, but out of nothing, we got something, and intelligent life was created from unintelligent nonlife, even though its not scientifically possible".

"A majority of Americans are religious to some degree and religion is the most powerful vehicle for the propagation of hate ever invented"

LOL. Right. Without religion there'd be no murder or war or hate. Spoken like a true communist.

"Your concepts of the universe are FUNDAMENTALLY the same. You just have better manners than they do."

Completely false. We both believe in a God, and that God created the universe yes. We both believe homosexuality is a sin yes. But no, we both don't believe God hates anyone. Sorry, but if all you can do is spew childish nonsense like this, you expose not only your ignorance but illustrate perfectly how MILITANT atheists like you can be. You also completely butcher the actual definition of hate. Thinking an act is sinful doesn't equate to "hate" for the person by any stretch of the imagination.


"You on the other hand would cheerfully kill me if you believed your deity told you to do so."

If God exists, your moral values mean nothing and are irrelevant. If God exists, He is the measuring stick of morality, not humans. How it makes a human feel is irrelevant. Truth is truth. Your only counter to this is "God doesn't exist". Except you yourself already said its possible He does. If its possible He does, than its possible that your moral values are completely wrong.

highboy said...

I won't even get into the fact that you already admitted that it was possible God exists. If its possible God exists, its possible demons exist. If its possible, its not irrational. That's just a fact. At the end of the day, as you've just proven beautifully, all you have is this same old "la la la you're deluded" chant while backing up no claims of your own. You can't prove any of your false statements or false accusations, but religion bothers you, because its people believing in something you don't. It IS a pissing contest with people like you and nothing more. But its one you won't win.

Teresa said...

Magpie,

I have noticed that you trust the government quite a bit but don't trust God and religion at all (or nearly totally) and you accept boundaries, limits, being told what is good for you and bad for you by the government but not when it comes to religion, God, or faith. How come?

Unfortunately when you believe in and support government programs that affects a numerous amount of citizens whereas with religion that affects you, yourself as a person, and the religious community you are apart of. The government and secular society is the one that has infringed upon religious peoples beliefs and not the other way around. Your the ones who demand approval of gay "marriage" and the like, not just acceptance or tolerance of the gay person. That's like saying let's let a drunk continue to drink and continue to mistreat this or that person. So you don't believe that you can love the person but not the disease? People of faith believe homosexual relations to be a sin but we love the person but not the sinful act.