Thursday, April 12, 2012

TIP OF THE ICEBERG - THE BEGINNING OF THE END FOR BRITAIN

Hat tip to: Lisa



 I have to say this woman had a lot of guts confronting these people.  And oh the shame! I can't believe she was showing flesh, naked or the audacity!  For shame!!  Oh, my eyes! My eyes! Ridiculous.

Listen to what the guy says about Islam not respecting the laws of the land if they are NOT an Islamic land so basically, any non-Muslim nation or person who is not Muslim can all go straight to hell. Well, isn't that just fine and dandy.

And this is why they REFUSE to honor our laws, our beliefs and demand that we bend over backwards for them and their religion, because in their eyes, if we are not one of them, then we deserve to go to hades for all eternity, even though, they are entering free nations.  Yeah, whatever.

What I find sad is how these people follow so blindly a god that doesn't exist and demands the blood of the innocent and believes in subjugating their women and little girls to cruel and brutal treatment.

There is only one God and that is Jehovah God, who sent His only beloved Son to die for us so that we, all people, could have eternal life with Him in heaven.  Jesus loved us so much that He willing gave His life for us all.  No other god can claim that. Other deities demand sacrifice and pain.  And for the record, while the Lord Jesus walked on the earth, there were no wars to speak of. Think about that for a minute.

Jehovah God is love and peace. And yes, is a Holy and just God.

106 comments:

Bartender Cabbie said...

Yep. The UK is done.

Leticia said...

BC, sadly, I agree. I had friends visit Britain and were shocked to see so many Muslims walking the streets.

dmarks said...

"so many Muslims walking the streets."

I don't see that in an of itself a problem. Extremist Muslims? A problem (just like extremists of any kind. But Muslims in general? No. I've been to Dearborn, Michigan a few times, and my brother lived there too. And yes you will see many Muslims walking the streets there.

As long as they are good citizens and don't try to impose brutal terrorist law (Shariah), I have no problem.

But when it comes to the problems we have in the state of Michigan, these Muslims aren't even on the radar.

Silverfiddle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Silverfiddle said...

... And they thought the Yank soldiers were bad...

Europe is demographically dead. Birth rates are almost to the point of no return in some countries. But still... If the last Belgian falls in a forest of shouting Muslims and no one's around to hear it, does he make a sound?

The Olde Continent's only hope is that the newcomers who will have at least a working plurality within the next 100 years absorb some European values.

If not, Europe at best will be Turkey, at worst, Pakistan...

dmarks said...

"If the last Belgian falls in a forest of shouting Muslims and no one's around to hear it, does he make a sound?"

I try to imagine the sound of a waffle hitting the detritus on the forest floor.

Not much sound there.

Magpie said...

There was constant warfare during the life of Jesus, including that involving the Roman Empire under which he lived. Three Roman legions were famously wiped out to a man by Germanic tribes in 9AD. Civil war was raging, along with famine, in China throughout his lifetime. Dynastic conflict in India throughout his lifetime. There probably has never been a time in recorded civilisation when there was not warfare somewhere.

You look at this and see a Muslim. I see yet another religious rabble-rouser telling other people how to live and not caring that they do not subscribe to their faith.
How to live.
I’m sure they have ideas about who you can and can’t marry too…

I’ve lived and worked with many Muslims. They’re not all like this. These people are Westboro Baptist Church of Islam.

Obamanot said...

Agreed, 100%

Leticia said...

Dmarks, normally when I post about the Muslims it is the extremists. What that man was saying was appalling and disturbing.

Silver, it is a sad situation. I hope that prediction will never come to pass.

Magpie, I was taught differently about when the Lord walked the earth, you have definitely peaked my curiosity, so I will do some research. Yes, absolutely, not all Muslims are bad, I am talking about the frightening extremists, and they are just as bad as those "whackjobs" of the Westboro Church, they are NOT true believers in Christ. They judge with hate and malice. There is a correlation. Good summation.

Welcome, Obamanot!

Anonymous said...

Leticia,

you make two quotes that are contradictory.

"What I find sad is how these people follow so blindly a god that doesn't exist and demands the blood of the innocent and believes in subjugating their women and little girls to cruel and brutal treatment."

then in the last comment above you say "I am talking about the frightening extremists, and they are just as bad as those ...."

It is contradictory in two ways. First you condemn the faith and now you are saying you condemn only the extremists. You cannot have it both ways considering your first comment.

Now if course you will disagree as we have had this conversation before. The fact is that their God is the same God that we believe in. Their belief in "Jehovah" under whatever name we or they chose, is clear enough and accepted by every church and synagogue except evangalists mostly in the US. That is your right, but your not only in a minority but logic says that it s what they believe that is common is in fact more relevant to any of our interpretations (ie they believe in us though we do not believe in them.).

Though the above can be disputed, it is absolutely not he case that their faith "demands the blood of the innocent and believes in subjugating their women and little girls to cruel and brutal treatment.". You attempted that before by quoting various scriptures from their holy book. Quoting out of context, in particularly cut & paste fails utterly under any condition, especially academically. Anyone can cut and paste any holy text and show whatever light they wish.

I am raising this issue, again, only because to make any argument you have to have the basics correct first. Extremists of any faith, be they Islamists or the Wesbro 'whackjobs' will claim and use scriptures to prove their points and you cannot respond to them by doing the same, because you risk doing the same. More so, by condemning the entire faith and worse, based on incorrect facts, alienates you from any solution.

With respect

Damien Charles

dmarks said...

Leticia: "Magpie, I was taught differently about when the Lord walked the earth, you have definitely peaked my curiosity, so I will do some research"



Yeah, the Roman Empire did not sit still.

The Lord is generally believed to have been in Earth in flesh from "Jesus of Nazareth.. 7–2 BC to 30–36 AD)" (from Wikipedia)

During this period, the heavily martian Roman Empire had the following happen, also from Wikipedia:

"# 5– Tiberius conquers Middle East
# 6– Judaea becomes a Roman province
# 6/9– Rebellions in Pannonia and Dalmatia suppressed by Germanicus
# 9– Three Roman legions are ambushed and massacred by the Germans in the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest
# 11– Germania Inferior and the Rhine secured by Germanicus
# 14/15– Germanicus campaigns against the Germanic tribes
# 28– The tribe of the Frisii rebel because of taxes
# 30– The fall of Sejanus

That's a lot of war. And this is in Rome alone.

Elsewhere? In China, in 27 AD "Chimei rebels surrender to Han authority after defeat"

I've not even touched on the constant state of tribal warfare in several parts of the world.

I don't recall anything Biblical about the idea that wars took a breather during His mortal life.

dmarks said...

Damien said: "Though the above can be disputed, it is absolutely not he case that their faith "demands the blood of the innocent and believes in subjugating their women and little girls to cruel and brutal treatment."

By any standard, the rape of a 9 year old girl is cruel and brutal. Yet, the founder of Islam did this. I just hope that later Muslims did/do not follow his example.

Anonymous said...

How about "shocked to see so many asians walking the streets"? Or "shocked to see so many blacks walking the streets", and what if we use the Jew word?

It does not work and we cannot use this form of argument or fall as being as extremists as those that we fear or hate.

dmarks got it right with his comment about Michigan and that is the logic that should be used universally.

I have often made the comment and that should be taken into account. More than often the radical Islamists over here in the west are way over the top than those in the actual Muslim world. Often they are in our countries because they were not tolerated in theirs. There is often a joke in places like Morocco and Egypt that they got rid of their troublemakers and the West welcomed them!

When you understand this, it all becomes a lot more clearer....

Damien Charles

Anonymous said...

dmarks,

if your talking about the Aisha age issue, then I respectfully ask that you learn a bit more about the subject.

puritanical Muslims and the clergy in the Muslim world do not accept debate BUT debate does exist and has always. The subject of the age of Aisha is one of the most disputed and yet stobbornly hushed down by Muslim clergy.

The fact is with a little bit of study, every academic in the Muslim world challenges the fact that Aisha was 9 years old. The timelines do not work, she contradicted her first statement later on, almost everyone in 7th century Arabia were both illeterate and did not know their exact ages. The source of her stating her age was from the one source that later was told 'is unreliable' - except for that one remark.

There are hundreds of sources on the net that show the dispute from debates in the most popular islamic blog/chat sites to major academic institutions.

Go to Muslim.org as an example and see an item that explains how simply put that it was impossible for Aisha to be 6 and 9 for betrothal and consumation, but more likely 12 and 15/16 (which would have been typical and more logical) http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm refers.

Obviously the islamophobes and profiteers would prefer that such debate did not exist for the benefit of their arguments, the puriticanical mysoginists would not want to take away their perverted advantage and clerics fear that any questions would losen their stranglehold on the mass of illiterate followers.

Damien Charles

Z said...

dmarks, I agree, except most of those muslims who aren't 'extreme' are on the dole. THAT is a problem for Britain.

Silverfiddle, Europe will be Turkey once the EU takes Turkey in. That's the only positive thing that now comes from the genocide of my ancestors, the Armenians (the first CHristian nation) in Turkey...Turkey still refuses to admit they killed 1.5 Armenians and that is a larger sticking point to Turkey's entry into the EU than some will admit.
Once they are admitted, the worst of the worst Turkish Muslims will swarm Europe. In Germany, in small towns, I've seen mosques being built where there are almost no muslims; in preparation.

Damien, do you understand that one can be shocked of seeing ANY obviously 'different' group in any city and not be pejorative?
After AFfirmative Action, I was STUNNED and shocked to very suddenly see so many Black people in Westwood Village, a place of MANY office buildings...it meant they'd suddenly got jobs that had been unavailable to them. That's a very good 'shocked and stunned' and that excellent trend has continued....

My stepson lives in Munich and tells me that German television recently featured a muslim not showing his face but spitting at Germans for their stupidity in financially supporting muslims to their own economic peril and how muslims will take over Germany and Germany doesn't have a clue...and how stupid they are that they let this happen. Of course, he was totally in favor of Germany's demise. There are attacks and murderers of innocent Germans almost every week in the U-Bahn stations, on the streets, etc.

How you can constantly defend Islam and patronizingly correct us all who do see that islam needs reformation from some of the tenets of its Koran is tough to understand.
DO you understand a healthy discussion of the perils we're facing is a good thing? That some muslims agree with us about their extremists? (not enough, sadly...they need to speak up)

Jersey McJones said...

Of, for Christ's sake, when are you guys going to grow up, get real, and realize there IS NO GOD.

JMJ

Anonymous said...

Z my comment about "seeing" in the community was partially tongue in cheek because you simply get into trouble with such statements.

I do not support comments that are in line with the "Eurabia" myth. Though I do not support Turkey entering the EU (I am in Gibraltar fyi) simply because I do not support an expanding EU into areas outside the first 12 nations. Also arguments that because Turks from 100 years ago tried to eliminate the existance of Armenians that they would do the same now just does not work from my point of view. Turkey of today is nothing like the Turkey of the Ottomans or in fact Turkey of Attaturk.

I do agree that there is a problem with some elements of the Turkish community in Europe as there are with other ethnic communities that are allowed to milk the system unchecked. It is like many trade-unions, give them an inch and they will take a mile. That is not the problem or the fault of the Turks that they can build a mosque even if there are only a handful of followers, it is that they can and thus they will. If you go to Muslim countries, only Dhaka in Bangladesh has a mosque built on every corner even though there is a large working Mosque down the street. Every other Muslim country requires evidence that there is a need for another mosque, ie, that the other ones are full. So why can they do it in Germany? It is local politics and fear of saying no to Muslims because it might be seen as bigoted or racist.

Just so you know, I am taking the side of education and academics and I do not defend Muslims or even Islam itself. It is becuase of 30 plus years of working with Muslims, travelling their countries, befriending them, defending them in my law practice and having both a degree in Islamic Studies and Letters in Arabic. Yes absolutely there are extremists and Muslims worldwide need to speak up, especially those in the West. The latter creates a vaccuum that needs to be filled and it is the haters like Spencer, Geller or Wilders and the BNP that do it instead.

Healthy discussion is not only needed but should be encouraged but based on facts, the reality in the streets and in context. Franklhy speaking, it is currently done on rumours, from questionable sources, representing only the extreme examples and context is never considered. That is what I am pushing and will continue to do so when I see it being missed.

I hope that clears it up.

Damien Charles

Always On Watch said...

I understand from friends in the UK -- friends who have lived in Saudi Arabia -- that flying into certain airports is akin to landing in Saudi Arabia. This change has been going on for quite a long time.

I fail to understand why Choudary isn't arrested for treason. Isn't he blatantly calling for the fall of the rule of law in the UK?

Anonymous said...

AOW

I agree with you totally there. I wonder is it that the so many more of the Muslims in Britain seem to want to travel back home all the time. That is nice, for them, but it also does not help integration and commitment to their new nation.

Choudary is a real problem and in six of the EU nations he would be in jail right now under treason laws. That is do-good liberalism at its worst.

Damien Charles

Always On Watch said...

Good grief!

Is THIS actually happening in the United States of America?

According to the web site of the Muslim Jurists of America: The Assembly of Muslim Jurists of America (AMJA), is an independent, nonpartisan, nonprofit organization with tax-exempt status under Internal Revenue Section 501(c)(3). It was established in response to the growing need of an Islamic jurisprudence specific to Muslims in the West. Its main goal is to uphold authentic standards using high academic standards, moderate approach and a rejection of extremism.

AMJA’s influence reaches far beyond the walls of mosques and Islamic Centers. Its work strengthens the moral character of society by developing the leadership capacities of Imams (religious leaders). Equipped with continued passion and tenacity to their work, AMJA scholars, experts, and Imams lead the Muslim community into a better understanding of the practice of the religion of Islam in Western societies....


More at the organization's home page.

Who ARE these people?

Always On Watch said...

Damien Charles,
But WHY is Choudary allowed to say what he says and do what he does?

It seems to me that he's clearly fomenting trouble.

Anonymous said...

I see AMJA material often via my work. I do not support it at all because they, like they do in Britain, cross the line of asking for more than what is in the law.

As a concept I have no problem that Muslims are judged under Islamic principles that FALL WITHIN THE EXISTING LAW, because they want it. What fails is if they want laws changed or they want "in-house" decisions that bi-pass laws. When that happens, mostly in family law - divorce and property settlement - the in-house means that pressure is put on the female to give away her just rights.

AMJA wants to change laws, I cannot accept that.

Damien Charles

Anonymous said...

AOW, he says what he likes because the government is weak. The law says that anyone can say what they want under freedom of expression but there is an articles that say "formenting the overthrow of/or revolution against the Kingdom" and "formenting anarchy or revolution within the Kingdom". Somehow, the government have chosen to consider his diatribe as expression only. I would argue otherwise. It is clearly not freedom of speech but collective calling via an organisation for the overthrow.

It is really sad and I wish he was Spanish....... he would get 15 years.

Damien Charles

Leticia said...

Damien, in no way is it contradictory that I condemn both entities. The religion, which I believe is false, and has followers that will kill without mercy.

And you may believe all you want that Allah and Jehovah are the same, but I know that they are not. My God, Jehovah, sacrificed His most precious and beloved Son for the sake of the people, to save us from eternal damnation. Jesus willing died on the cross for us so that no more blood sacrifices would be required. Allah demands it, can you honestly deny that? Jesus gave instructions for men to love and honor their wives and children.

Look at what some of the Muslims do to their women, their children, themselves. Cutting open their foreheads, mutilating themselves and others, and for what? So, yes, I will condemn when innocent blood is being shed.

I serve and love a God of peace and love and forgiveness. And demands that we love and pray for our enemies, He instructs to render what is Caesars and what is God's. No where in our Holy Bible tells to conquer and demand special privileges and rights. Jesus came to save the world not condemn. Islam is the opposite.

I am quite aware of your adversity to cutting and pasting, but I have never taken them out of context, sorry to burst your bubble but I have read a lot of the Qur'an and there are VAST differences in it's teachings from the KJV, the only version that I read.

Cutting and pasting entire pages to make my point would be ludicrous, and how many people would read it? I would even go as as far as sending links for people to read for themselves of what I have found and read.

Dmarks, I want to thank you and Magpie, about bringing up that there were wars, I cannot recall the bible teaching that I heard that there was peace when our Lord walked the earth. Odd.. I don't mind be corrected and you both did a brilliant job shedding light on this matter for myself, who I am sad to say, am no historical novice.

Jersey, I know you don't believe it, but there truly is a God and His name is Jehovah and He loves you, even though you do not believe He exists. Shame we couldn't discuss this further in detail.

Z, exactly. Christians will correct other Christians, in love, when they are going against the teachings of the Word of God. The good Muslims need to start speaking out as well.

Always On Watch said...

Damien Charles,
I see that we've found some areas of agreement with regard to the AMJA and Choudary.

If such entities gain more power within the West...

I'm sure that I don't need to complete that sentence.

Right Truth said...

She reminds me of Ann Barnhardt here in the US, so brave to speak out. I'm surprised she does not have a fatwa on her. She better hope they don't know her name or where she lives.

Compare that message from the muslims to the love, sacrifice and joy offered by Christianity. Also compare the teachings of Jesus to Mohammad.

Debbie
Right Truth
http://www.righttruth.typepad.com

dmarks said...

Jersey said: "Of, for Christ's sake, when are you guys going to grow up, get real, and realize there IS NO GOD."

I understand that this is your faith, and you are proselytizing. A right that is protected in a free society.

The Debonair Dudes World said...

And it's coming soon to a neighborhood near you. I'm afraid.

Anonymous said...

Leticia,

my bubble is not burst. Since you claim to have "read the Quran" and thus know about it then by default your misquoting and losing context.

Example, you continue to say that Islam and Allah demands blood in some form (Allah demands it, can you honestly deny that?). I not only deny it but academically can deny it totally. I do not have to support a faith to know when incorrect data is provided. Any academic with their salt will say the same. Those that say otherwise, including yourself, simply did not study the faith via academics or they simply chose not to believe so via basic ignorance, alterior motives or for profit.

It is simple as that.

Your belief that God and Allah are not the same is your right and respected regardless of it being fringe and unsupported by 90 plus percent of Christianity.

Damien Charles

dmarks said...

"Your belief that God and Allah are not the same is your right and respected regardless of it being fringe and unsupported by 90 plus percent of Christianity."

I'd like to see poll numbers. Anything other than obscure clerics having meetings and deciding something that the flock has no idea about.

Lone Ranger said...

Everywhere in the world where you see a sizable number of Muslims living next to ANY other culture, you will see violence and bloodshed. If Muslims are not a problem in Dearborn Michigan, it's because their numbers in that city and in that state and in this country are not yet great enough to IMPOSE their religion on others.

Furthermore, there is no such thing as an extremist Muslim because the Koran and Hadiths support ALL the violent actions of the terrorists. A religion should be judged by its teachings, not by the people who do not follow them. In the case of Islam, it is the peaceful Muslims who are not following the teachings.

Oh, it this woman would most likely burn even if she were a Muslim, because Muhammad said most women go to hell for being tempters of men. Yeah, he was quite the nutjob.

Jersey McJones said...

Ya' know guys, I'm so sorry you miss the irony in all your comparative-religious stupidity.

Look at America. You know America. It's the place in which you live.

We are among the most violent people in the developed world. Every day, wives and children are beaten, neighbors are assaulting one another. Set aside all the other violence, just among those acts, we are among the most violent.

We are also, if I'm not mistaken, the most professedly Christian people in the developed world.

Anyone getting the irony here???

JMJ

Lone Ranger said...

And where in the Bible is the beating of wives, children and neighbors justified? Just because someone professes to be Christian doesn't mean he is.

dmarks said...

"We are among the most violent people in the developed world."

Not really. Only if you are selective (in looking at very recent history). In recent history, that of our grandfathers, most of the European countries (along with Japan) which you hold up as examples had much/most of society gleefully engage in some of the worst killing and atrocities in history.

Yes, we can go for over a hundred years without anything like this But "the rest of the developed world" really can't say this, can they?

Sure, the Detroit riots were pretty bad, but are nothing compared to the Rape of Nanking or the French who had no problem turning over Jews in the mid 20th century. Or the rape of tens of thousands of women in Kosovo in recent years (deemed acceptible by Kosovo's "advanced" neighbours to the West just a few miles away).

And the tolerance for this kind of thing is rather high in so-called civilized Western Europe in recent history. They were fine sitting back as their close neighbors Serbia killed off hundreds of thousands in the south Balkans. It was only the leadership of the US that solved this problem... a problem that was quite tolerable to supposedly violence-averse Western Europe.

Anonymous said...

dmarks,

The answer to the numbers is actually quite simple. The Catholic Church, the Church of England, and even the Lutheran Church and other Protestant organisations have all declared Islam as an Abrahamic Faith. By declaring such that simply means that the God of Abraham is similarly worshiped. These organisations represent 90 per cent of Christendom.

It is not a part of some fringe clerical desision. The World Council of Churches discussed the matter on a number of times and they as an organisation recognises the fact that Islam is an Abrahamic Faith and that they worship the same God.

"There are many points of convergence between Christian and Islamic beliefs - both understand God as Creator and Sustainer, as Just and Merciful, as a God who reveals His word and who will call people to account for their stewardship over creation. Both communities of faith stress the centrality of prayer, and share common values and ideals such as the search for justice in society, providing for people in need, love for one's neighbour and living together in peace. Both Muslims and Christians often fail to recognize these points of convergence because they tend to see themselves in terms of the ideal and the other in terms of the actual. "

It is the Baptists and Evangelist communites almost exlusively in America that are the main descentor. The WCC represents 349 of the major churches in the world and in fact 93.4 per cent of Christendom. Interestingly, Baptists and many Evangelicals from around the world (not including of course those particular groups in America) are a part of the WCC and signed off on that statement.

I should add that the World Jewish Congress accepts both Christians and Muslims as being Abrahamic and worshiping the same God.

As I said, to think otherwise is really fringe.

Damien Charles

Anonymous said...

Lone Ranger

With all respect, your not really basing your statements on any reality or facts.

"Everywhere in the world where you see a sizable number of Muslims living next to ANY other culture, you will see violence and bloodshed."

It only takes a bit of research, not just from agenda-based bloggers to realise that there are certainly Muslims everywhere and without bloodshed. Malaysia is a country divided with a very large South Asian (mostly Tamil) and Chinese communities very much in harmony. The current minister line up would be a good example. In fact the last conflict in that country was the cause of Chinese-based communism.

Exagerations about conflicts in every Muslim-contact area does noone good, it only makes the person uttering such remarks look like they come from a school yard. Fiji is a third Muslim and yet any conflict there is the local non-Muslims who dominate the military. If your thinking of about street violence in the US or here in the UK then even that is an exageration and out of context if you consider the sheer number of violent crimes and gang problems - the Muslims in general are not an issue at all except for those with political and ideological links to outsiders.

"If Muslims are not a problem in . . . "

Actually wide-sweeping comments like "Muslims are or Muslims do or Muslims want" are flagrantly bigoted and should be avoided. That is because it is not only unjustified logically - because most Muslims are in fact just basic people living in the streets of your country living normal lives and therefore you do not see them. What you should be saying is "radicals or radical Islamists", then you are both technically and logically right.

" are not yet great enough to IMPOSE their religion on others.

"because the Koran and Hadiths support ALL the violent actions of the terrorists."

No, that is not correct at all and smells of the smears of hate-blogs and certain evangelical cults that want to increase their numbers. It is so easy to quote via cut & paste, claim literal interpretations and all you do is end up supporting the puritanicals bent on world domination.

It would be simply like believing the interpetations of Westbro as being representative of all Christianity and using their puritanical quotes to justify it. Smell similar?

Frankly speaking I am rather tired of what can only be described as sheep-like repetative rumour-mongering that only makes those that repeat such dribble as "just another sheep".

Personally, I think people should grow up a bit.

Damien Charles

dmarks said...

Damien: Your quite simple ignored the point. Aside from the fact that the Abraham's are different between the religions, it did not address the perceptions of the actual worshippers.

"There are many points of convergence between Christian and Islamic beliefs..."

Yet, there are profound differences. Very profound.

Do you doubt for a moment that the vast majority of Jews will disagree that Jesus is God? (as opposed to 90% agreeing)? Or the vast majority of Muslims will disagree with the same faith? (as opposed to 90% agreeing).

Or that the vast majority of Christians believe that Muhammad is any sort of prophet, and that the Christian God has anything to do with the new material in the Quran and the altered similar material?

"As I said, to think otherwise is really fringe."

Lets see some proof of this unlikely assertion, aside from obscure clerical meetings. I know we get Catholics commenting and reading here.

Anonymous said...

The argument about who is the most violent is very interesting. It all depends on criteria really.

We all know many Muslim countries are in states of war or revolution and thus being violent is obvious. Thus when we talk about any nation at war or was in a conflict, they were violent.

It is when we talk about periods of non-conflict that we should judge peoples and nations. We can talk about represive states or when can talk about crime levels.

The United States should be considered only based on what it claims and wants to be in comparison to the reality. In that case the United States is not the worst place in the world but by far is not that great (or great as some claim).

It is not repression that is the problem but crime and violence.

We should ask ourselves about why for instance that a quarter of the developed world's prisoners are in the US? Why is it that it is safer to walk in a street in down-town Casablanca than it is in down town Detroit? We can talk about violence with guns but that is a subject itself, we can talk about gangs, drugs and we can talk about ethnic cultural violence.

America is certainly not the most violent place on earth but it would be wrong to say that it the best place.

If we talk about history and times of peace we can argue that the 2 million people that were fed into the Colosseum could very well be considered a top contender - if only we could count what the Atztecs fed into their temples....

Damien Charles

Anonymous said...

Dmarks,

The proof is the WCC's statements both from the August 1948 statement in Amsterdam and reconfirmed in the 1992 Conference which I believe my quote also comes from. I am not going to spend my time searching for the quotes from the various organsiation but I will remind you that just the WCC represents the numbers and thus under 10 per cent in my opinion represents the term "fringe". That does not mean I do not respect the right to have a different view, but it most certainly does say that it is not even a large minority.

As for the same God, the differences are obvious and the comments that you make are based on that, not the similarities which make the qualification.

The subject is one single point of the worship of a God and are we worshiping that same God. How we discribe, divide or even method of praying to is beside the point. In addition, it is not how we interpret the others but how the others interpret us that is more to the point.

Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe in a creator called God. That God can be Himself divided or present a Son for this argument does not matter at all. Jews neither believe in Christ or Mohammed at all, but the recognise both has worshipping that same Creator that Moses and Abraham taught them.

As long as you look at the differences rather than the qualifying similarities, you fail to miss the point. Obvously the World Council of Churches and 93.4 per cent of Christian theologians understand.

Lastly, that you do not believe so is your right and should be respected. I am not attempting to change your view or to condemn you, but I am only stating how things are viewed and that your view, whilst respected, is a minority. What I am not interested in is an argument that your view is more important or changes that reality.

Damien Charles

dmarks said...

Still waiting for what the worshippers believe, as opposed to a handful of theologians.

Anonymous said...

dmarks,

not a handful if the collective theologians and learship that represent 93.4 per cent of Christendom consider something, you should not let your minority assume a quasi-majority because you think differently.

Worshippers themselves normally accept the logic of what the clergy tell them, what they learn in school and only then the society around them.

So yes they will ask do Muslims and Jews believe that Jesus was the Son and Saviour and they will no, but that does not mean that they will not accept BECAUSE OF THIS that they are therefore not worshipping the same God.

Your bais because of your own belief (or in this case disbelief) should not alter that fact.

The reality is that of the 93.4 per cent, who BELONG TO A CHURCH THAT ACCEPTS THIS, the majority does not even bother to think about it and if they did would probably ask the Church and get the same answer as I am giving you.

It is a non-topic your arguing about oranges to my comment about apples.

I consider it like this, your also representing a view from the same community that a quater believes Barrack Obama is a Muslim and that he was not born in America. Enough said.

Damien Charles

dmarks said...

And... "That God can be Himself divided or present a Son for this argument does not matter at all."

This is actually a huge difference.

Ask any Christian if it makes a different to him or her whether or not Jesus is God.

Ask any Muslim if it makes a difference whether or not their God had a prophet Muhammad.

....the only ones on the fringe will be the ones who say this does not matter.

dmarks said...

"The reality is that of the 93.4 per cent, who BELONG TO A CHURCH THAT ACCEPTS THIS, the majority does not even bother to think about it and if they did would probably ask the Church and get the same answer as I am giving you."

Let's see some evidence. Instead, you only assume.

"It is a non-topic your arguing about oranges to my comment about apples."

An apt comparison. The Muslim God and another deity, the Christian God, are like apples and oranges.

Leticia said...

Debbie, spot-on. She was alone or rather alone with her cameraman. I don't know what would have happened had she not been recording her interview and viewing of the chanting and parading down the streets, screaming their hate of the UK and British police.

Debonaire, I am afraid it has already begun. But it's still not too late to either make them abide our laws or get out. No more compromise.

Damien, regardless of how we go back and forth on the truth of Jehovah God and Allah, I know that I walk in the truth. Polls or no polls. There is a vast difference as we have discussed. And true believers in Jesus Christ are blessed with the Holy Ghost that allows us to know the truth. The truth, Damien, is that Jehovah God is the one and only true living God. If you are a Catholic as you claim to be, how can you not know this?

LR, you are spot-on. We can even compare your description of Christians who claim to be "Christian." But support abortion and gay marriage. You cannot have it both ways, you either are a Believer or not. There is no such thing as being lukewarm. Excellent commentary!

Jersey, there is violence everywhere, we are all aware of that. But we do not behead, bludgeon people to death, stone women, mutilate our little girls all in the name of a god. There is a vast difference. You are quite entitled to believing what you believe, but I know that my precious Heavenly Father would never call for any of us to harm one another. Jesus commanded us to love our neighbors, pray for our enemies, and to forgive them. Not behead them, etc.

There is one thing that is perfectly clear. One God, Jehovah, Does not call for death or the blood of His enemies, does not call to chant hate through streets. I believe in a God of forgiveness and love.

Allah calls anyone that is non-Muslim the enemy. And Muslims believe that. We are condemned to hell by the laws of Islam if we are not of that faith.

Anonymous said...

"But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one,merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day. "

Lumen Gentium [Dogmatic Constitution on the Church], November 21, 1964. Here is the quotation from Chapter II in context (the entire document can be found at http://abbey.apana.org.au/Councils/vatican2/V2church.Htm):

"3. The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth,[1] who has also spoken to men. They strive to submit themselves without reserve to the bidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God's plan, to whose faith Muslims eagerly link their own. Although not acknowledging him as God, they worship Jesus as a prophet, his virgin Mother they also honor, and even at times devoutly invoke. Further, they await the day of judgment and the reward of God following the resurrection of the dead.

For this reason they highly esteem an upright life and worship God, especially by way of prayer, alms-deeds and fasting.

Over the centuries many quarrels and dissensions have arisen between Christians and Muslims. The sacred Council now pleads with all to forget the past, and urges that a sincere effort be made to achieve mutual understanding; for the benefit of all men, let them together preserve and promote peace, liberty, social justice and moral values."

- Vatican Convention 1968 repeating the Catechism of the Catholic Church,1 paragraph 841.

I could spend time to find the World Council of Churches 1948 statement about Islam, Judaism and Christianity worshiping the same God but I simply will not bother to spend the rest of the sun today on it. I remembered a statement from the WCC so looking it up is an example. It is the last line of a Ramadan message to the Muslim World from the WCC. If you know the WCC then you will know that they do not put phrases in that one of the 300 plus churches would not accept.

"Dear friends, the prayer for God's peace is at the heart of the spirituality of Muslims and Christians. At the beginning of the month of Ramadan we greet you with a word of peace and friendship.

May your fast, and ours, be pleasant to God.'

http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/news/press/01/42pre.html

As I said, 93.4 per cent of Christendom are a part of the WCC.

I can go on, the Anglican Church (Church of England) reconfirmed their view of the sharing of the same God at the Lambeth 1989 Conference (and again at Lambeth 1998) via Conference in Resolution 21 Jews, Christians and Muslims: The Way of Dialogue (1989).

"The Way of Dialogue remains the most recent authoritative statement on the theology of interfaith concerns in relation to Islam for the Anglican Communion.51 There is an evident indebtedness to Vatican II and in particular to Nostra aetate in the situating of relations with Islam in the context of the Abrahamic faiths. The Way of Dialogue goes somewhat further than Vatican II...."

(Vatican II is the above quotes).

If you want more, go look it up yourself, do not be sceptical only because your own pastor says otherwise.




Damien Charles

Anonymous said...

Leticia,

As a Catholic I am part of the 93.4 per cent of Christians that believe we are talking about the same God. I assume, therefore, that you are of the minority of Churches that does not. If your Church is part of the World Council of Churches, then you are also going against Church values.

Note the above quotes I have given to dmarks.

Also, as we have discussed endlessly, the Koran does not seek death and destruction, that view is neither academic nor in fact logical and most certainly (and more importantly) Muslims do not believe that either. I frankly wonder if you even bother to research.....

Damien Charles

Anonymous said...

Let's make this also very clear.

I am talking only about the fact that Muslims, Jews and us Christians are talking and praying to the same One True God.

That has NOTHING to do with how they intepret variations to God, about the Holy Trinity and ESPECIALLY about religious practices, management or if we believe in Islam's prophet or not.

The sole subject here is do Muslims and Jews worship the same God as we do, that is all.

I would consider that we are all educated enough to filter out the politics and events of recent years, bais and anger over two wars and 9/11 and even the acts and speeches of radical Islamists.

Also, because we may believe in something very strongly we can argue that we do not accept the argument - as I am sure dmarks and Leticia will not. That is also not my point, because the comment that I am responding to is the simple reality that the majority of Churches including the World Council of Churches not to mention the World Jewish Congress all have said time and time again that Muslims do believe in the same God.

I like to think it another way as well, tell a follower of Westbro that he/she is not a real Christian or following the Lord Christ's teachings but even though his/her views may be so extreme - they also are worshiping the very same God as well. It is not the how, the method but the what that counts in this argument.

Damien Charles

Leticia said...

Damien, yes I do research and I was wondering the sane thing about you.

The only way to heaven, is through Jesus Christ. And the Muslims only see Him as a great prophet.

He is the only way, Damien, there is no other.

And I am friends with many Catholics, and most of my family is Catholic. I know for a fact that they do not believe that Allah is the same god as Jehovah God. Where do you get your information. Mine comes from devout Catholics.

Jesus is the way, the only way to eternal salvation. And that is the irrefutable truth.

I can copy and paste scriptures from my KJV but I know that you seem to loathe that about bloggers.

Fred said...

I see you are still spreading your misconceptions, DC. The catholic catechism does not say Allah is the same god of Abraham. It says that Muslims *claim* to worship the god of Abraham. And I say that Muslims only say that to give themselves some credibility. They would not just come out and say we are doing the work of the antichrist, now would they? It’s just like you claiming to be catholic. The church says all will be judge by the same one true god. All, including Muslims, will be judge by the same one true god. That is not the same as saying Allah is the same as the one true god. Only you are saying that. And it had never said anything until most recently for that matter. And they have been taking about these things for a very, very long time. You are not explaining it correctly. You are deliberately and repeatedly obfuscating the matter. It is just like you are working on someone’s payroll, if you ask me. Academics do not turn to the leaders of Christians and Jews asking who Allah is either. You say that. And no one is asking you what academics teach anyways. Intelligent and reasonable people go to school to learn what academics teach, they do not go to you for that. You would just distort it anyways because you have too much invested in Islam to be able to give an objective opinion. I’m not worried; no one is buying your BS anyways. You are a devout catholic Islamic scholar, yeah riiiiight.

Anonymous said...

Leticia, your Catholic friends simply never bothered to ask a Priest, that is clear enough.

Damien Charles

Anonymous said...

Fred,

I suggest you crawl back from under the rock you were hiding/sleeping.

"The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth"

Try a bit of research.

Damien Charles

Fred said...

Did you just copy paste that, DC? You are out of context.

Try not being an obnoxious ass. Oh, wait, you can’t help that-never mind.

dmarks said...

""The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth"

The Muslim God, true, which is a unitary being, rather different from the triune God of the Christians.

dmarks said...

And in traveling elsewhere in the web, I found several Islamic pages which had much material to disprove the existence of the Holy Trinity. These Muslims clearly believe that the Christians have a different God from theirs, as they passionately try to disprove the existence of the other deity.

And this is also quite telling. From a page of Catholic theology

"It is noteworthy that Pope Gregory doesn’t say that the one God that he and King Anzir both worship is the same God. All he says is that both he and Anzir worship one God; in other words, they’re both monotheists. And the Second Vatican Council is not actually making a definitive statement on that issue."

which rather dispells the "apples-and-oranges are all really apples" idea that the Muslim God and the Christian God are the same.

The quote is from Crisis Magazine, "the voice of the faithful Catholic laity", which clearly aren't all in lockstep with twisted interpretations of 'Vatican II' and meetings of church councils no one cares much about.

Christians worship one God and are monotheists. Muslims worship one God and are monotheists. But it is quite a stretch to say that these two different, rather contradictory deities are the same one.

The logical fallacy of those on the fringe who (ignoring the Bible and the Quran) mush two Gods into one is like reading "Jim likes to eat a hamburger" and "Joe likes to eat a hamburger" and then expecting to see a picture of two men together both biting into the same burger.

Anonymous said...

"They worship God".

That was my point, the only point and that is all. If people here want to be short-sighted and miopic to the extreme that is frankly their problem.

At no point did I say that Muslims are going to heaven, are saved, that the Koran is God's word or that Mohammed is a prophet. What I stated is that they worship the same God.

Additionally, that quote above clearly states what the Church of Rome's doctrine states.

You can all believe, accept what you want, you can call Mohammed an anti-Christ if you believe it - that is also not the point, but it is impossible to deny that the Catholic Church recognises, as does the World Council of Churches that Muslims are praying to the very same God as we are.

That was my point, you can all dance and jiggle as uncomfortably around that fact as you like.

Damien Charles

dmarks said...

"but it is impossible to deny that the Catholic Church recognises, as does the World Council of Churches that Muslims are praying to the very same God as we are."

The Catholic article I quoted definitely denies it.

There's no problem with me jiggling around the fact you refer to, as it is not a fact.

Anonymous said...

dmarks,

continuing talking about the Trinity is a moot point and not relevant to the topic. Harping on that issue is simple inane.

As for Catholic hierachy, I quoted what is official that you wish to find somehting to contradict it is also a failed effort from foundation to end simply because if you wish to find something so desperately you will find something "even if it is not really there" (quoting Churchill).

My point, as I mentioned in my post above, you may believe it or not but I refer to what the vast majority of established Churches believe, not what you may believe.

Also, "rather contradictory deities are the same one" is also not relevant at all. At no point did I say that the form of worshiping the One True God is at the same level, correct, superior or inferior - that was not the point. Would you say that Westbro are worshiping the same God? They are, just badly.

That is why we could also argue that Bin Laden worshipped the same God but obviously so badly that we could not recognise it or worse. The point is not how or even why but the fact that it is the same.

If you want to use the hamburger, yes they are eating and taking bite of the same hamburger only they like more beef, you prefer to concentrate on the onions and perhaps some pickles whilst others concentrate on the bun. A bad analogy but to the point.

Pope John Paul II said it best, he used the analogy of us all worshiping God through the sun, seeing it from different continents, different clouds and even calling it different names. Some simply look up at the sun and pray, some build a temple with an image of the sun and some organise entire social orders of different sun worship styles. Ultimately someone re going to say that a temple is not worshiping the sun, and thus are heretics and since one group is at war with the other, their sun must be not the same.

The reality, dmarks, is much of your comments and others here has nothing to do with theology, scripture or even logic, it has to do with centuries of conflict, two current wars, 9/11 and collecting souls.

Damien Charles

Anonymous said...

dmarks, you quoted an opinion within a magazine by the blogger Robert Spencer who we all know makes profit from attacking Islam in every single form. To consider Spencer a source is not only laughable but frankly a reflection that your ability to be serious on the subject.

Spencer has proven to be the expert in cut & paste of quotes and now goes as far as to take the side and support puritanical wahhabists and salafis as being the "true Islam". If you try and point out anything on his hate-blog it dissapears.

Spencer also claims expertise in Islam but has no credentials on the subject. He claims to be invited by Universities but in fact is invited by far-right student groups in universities whom are allowed to use facilities.

What a joke, please get a bit real if you want to make this discussion go further. Using Spencer is like a Muslim quoting Westbro as being representing all of Christendom.

Damien Charles

Anonymous said...

I should add from just glossing over Spencers typical context-abortion, he has followed the same style. He has argued somehow that because of the behaviour of Muslims today that the judgement of being the same God has now changed. That is a failure in logic because we are not talking about the behaviour of Muslims but the concrete defintion of God to Muslims. Spencer simply attempts to squirm around it and uses the typical emotive attempts of avoiding the subject itself but talking about modern day Egypt, hijabs as if that is relevant.

Jersey McJones said...

Isn't it funny the way religious topics always get off course?

Sectarianism is always bad.

All you religious bloggers here, Leticia included, are making the same argument the "terrorists" and "Islamists" and "Sharia Law" goofballs are making - "My religion is the ONLY religion."

That is an ominous pretension.

Why look for trouble?

JMJ

Anonymous said...

JMJ

You are in many ways correct (other than not believing in God which frankly is your problem and I make no beef about).

Leticia and co. follow a particular line that pushes religion in your face and condemns anything that does not support their view as obviously unGodly and evil.

I simply want them to face some realities and not mix their personal views/faith with basic realities. If you believe it or not the vast majority of established Christianity and Judaism accept that Muslims worship the same God. That they believe it or have to, or do not believe in God has nothing to do with that statement.

I also agree and dispise those that push "my religion is the ONLY religion". I am very anti proselytizing even from my own Church. I am a follower of the philosopher Emmanuel Kant and he could not stand it stating that selling anything other than a commodity implies by default your lack of confidence of it.

Damien Charles

dmarks said...

"I am very anti proselytizing even from my own Church"

I am very pro-proselytizing, as it is an expression of human freedom. To be able to argue what you believe in, in an attempt to convince others. Hence my earlier support for Jersey's efforts.

"stating that selling anything other than a commodity implies by default your lack of confidence of it."

Which applies only if you are selling it. While some do sell religion, that's not what Leticia has been doing here. And Jersey is not selling his viewpoint either.

dmarks said...

Damien said: "If you believe it or not the vast majority of established Christianity and Judaism accept that Muslims worship the same God."

I'd like some evidence of this. Still waiting.

Anonymous said...

dmarks,

I did but your avoiding it and providing comments by hate-bloggers as sources to counter it.

Established Christianity - ie means the leadership and accepted view agreed via them.

93.4 per cent of Christianity is represented via the WCC (World Council of Churches).

I have quoted from both the Catholic Church and the WCC.

Evidence is provided.

Damien Charles

Anonymous said...

Proselytizing by default means that one person tells the other that your faith is no good and only their faith is.

It is my belief that Paul and Peter did not in fact proselytize but simply gave The Message and presented the Lord by example.

Proselytizing is an evangelical tool to count souls to support their own power-games and inter-Church p*ssing contest. (My personal view, of course).

Damien Charles

Leticia said...

Fred, thanks and spot-on! DC refuses to see the truth.

DC, I have a friend who happens to be a priest and he disagrees. What priests have you been speaking to? I am honestly perplexed as to why you persist on speaking on behalf of all Catholics, Jews and Christians alike, that we worship the god, Allah, when we do not. And why is that those Muslims who accept Jesus Christ as their Savior are persecuted, jailed or killed by Muslims if they believed that He is the true Messiah and the Son of the living God, Jehovah?

Jersey, I know that you do not believe in God Jehovah, and that is your choice. I am not forcing you to accept anything, nor I have I ever pushed you to believe in Jesus. However, I will never deny Christ as my Savior. Nor am I ashamed to say that I love and worship my Savior with all of my heart.

Believing in Jesus Christ is NOT a religion. It is a choice that we all must make, regardless if you are Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Evangelical or whatever religion. It's about faith.

Jersey McJones said...

Leticia, you know I am a big fan of Jesus. I'm just a Jeffersonian Christian - I just don't fret about my own personal salvation and miracles and all that. Otherwise, I'm a Christian, and more, I should say, than most conservatives.

JMJ

Anonymous said...

Leticia,

Fred just made stuff up and requires to return under the rock he came from.

I do not speak for Catholicism, I just referred to the fact that the official Church position as well as that of the World Council of Churches believies otherwise.

The Catholic Church allows dissention to a degree, your priest is free to believe it or not.

Do I speak to Priests, of course. I am a member of the board that oversights Saint Mary's the largest Church here in Gibraltar. I am also a member of the Association of Catholic Lawyers here.

You miss the point constantly, I am not talking about personal acceptance, if individuals wish to believe or not or even my own opinion. I made the comment and it is a fact, that the vast majority (around 93.4 per cent) of ESTABLISHED CHURCH has the position that they are worshiping the same God as us.

I have repeated that same, very clear and simple fact and frankly Leticia you and others here are skirting around that point simply because you cannot bear the fact that most christians other than yourself believe it. That is your problem and you have to deal with it. It is your blog and you can deny all you like but I consider that a very miopic state to be in.

You also must give me the respect that I do not challange your right to your view, I have NEVER done that, I just pointed out the simple fact that the majority do not AND even though dmarks and Fred-from-under-the-rock close their eyes I provided FACTUAL evidence and links.

Damien Charles

dmarks said...

Damien: You have provided no evidence, other than meetings of obscure clerics making proclamations few even know about.

Do you have any evidence at all that this 93.4 believes as you do? Any? Other than an assumption of some sort of adherence to obscure proclamations by the flocks? Polls of believers of one or preferably both faiths would be evidence. But you have provided none so far.

---------------

Jersey said: "Otherwise, I'm a Christian..."

Are you really so sure?

"Christ (Greek Χριστός (Khristós) 'anointed') is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), the Messiah.[3]..."

An Atheist who believes in a Messiah?

dmarks said...

Damien also said: "even though dmarks and Fred-from-under-the-rock close their eyes I provided FACTUAL evidence and links."

No, you have provided no links that provide any evidence of this.

Jersey McJones said...

dmarks, I don't "believe" in Jesus as the savior or messiah. I adhere to the ethical teachings of Jesus - the Golden Rule, charity, kindness, stewardship, honesty, tolerance, the separation of church and state, etc. All the mythical nonsense - miracles, God, Heaven and Hell, salvation, creation, monsters and giants, the Devil, angels, immaculate conception, resurrection - mean nothing to me. They are obviously just myths.

JMJ

dmarks said...

"They are obviously just myths."

Not "obviously". Whether or not they are myths is a matter of faith, and your faith tells you it is myth.

Anyway, the "messiah" stuff is part and parcel of Christianity. You are probably better off saying you are a Jesus fan or something like that instead of saying you are "Christian'.

dmarks said...

Earlier Damien said: "Yes absolutely there are extremists and Muslims worldwide need to speak up, especially those in the West."

We need that in the US. The main voice of American Muslims that the media run to here is CAIR. They are a fundraising front group for extremists, and view wiping out the Israelis as a fine goal.

Fred said...

How funny, ask a priest, just not any you might know. DC, 93.4% of people who spell god g-o-d believe you are an obnoxious clown. I have provided proof.

Anonymous said...

Fred provided nothing, he just crawled from under a rock and barfed. Dmarks, you quoted only from a magazine that quoted a notorious profiteer blogger.

I provided direct documental quotes and links.

Note, "They worship God". The Lumen Gentium. I also quoted later decision. I also quoted from the WCC including a message that "shares" prayers to God, not our God or their God.

The said reality is that your wishing and wanting if not hoping something is not the case and it is rather funny but perhaps reflected of your socity that also enjoys prostelitizing, telling others that their faith is damned or doomed and you enjoy theological p*ssing contests based on conceptual goal-posts that you set. It simply does not stick, rather it stinks.

DC

Anonymous said...

Fred of the under-rock,

Not that you give a damn, as I said now numerous times, the 93.4 per cent is not 93.4 per cent of believers, I have each and every time referred to the Established Churches that represent 93.4 per cent of Christendom. I suspect that children who cannot get their head around that should not be playing with adults and should return to their game-boys or psps.

DC

Anonymous said...

dmarks,

that is my biggest beef with the world and especially the west's Muslim communities.

As someone who regularly travels to Muslim countries, knows and works with Muslims I know that it may be understandable with history, social history and even econics that there can be difficulties with extremism in Muslim countries but it just so happens that extremists in the West are often more extreme than those in Muslim countries.

The void that exists because the silent majority shuts their mouths is filled by the likes of other extremes and thus we must put a greater share of blame on those moderates. The remainder goes to the governments for letting the extremists in.

Damienc Charles

Anonymous said...

Since it is Sunday and I do regularly go to Church I actually raised the topic "again" afterwards as my wife I stay back and we often have lunch with other members of my Church and one or two of the priests (there are five). I will not give names or details as St Mary's is easily googled. We only had tea as to many of us were busy today.

The fact is that we have discussed this subject a number of times. Perhaps I am to hard on all of you because grasping the basic difference between what the formal stance is compared to what people are aware of and the confusion because of today's politics and relations with many Muslim countries must be confusing to some.

Even during the First Crusades, Pius II never ever considered Muslims to be anything other than God's children. He condemned them, he considered that they must embrace Christ or face damnation but he still recognised that when they mentioned God they were talking about the same one.

The point has nothing to do with how Muslims practice their faith, how they pray or even how they accept the Bible. It has nothing even to do with how they deny God's manifestation in Christ his Son and in the Holy Spirit because they are still talking about the same God.

At the most extreme, and if you must, you would have to consider that Muslims worship the same God as the Jews and it is us therefore who worship another. Interestingly, Muslims have no problem with acknowledging our God and so do the Jews whom we could argue have the biggest "beef" when it comes to introducing our Prophets!

Again, it is up to you to believe it or not, but I repeat and have done so with evidence and links, that the vast majority of Established Church doctrine has accepted this.

My working week is going to be busy and I need to be by late tomorrow night in your city of Orlando. Unless one of you lives near to continue the discussion at the Grand Bohemian Hotel on Tuesday for breakfast, my meetings do not start until 11am. I am told breakfast is a speciality here, I am a Marriott Club member and have heard good stories about this particular hotel.

Needless to say I am going to bed and there is so much I can say and facts that can be given to those whom simply do not want to accept. I think for me I will not return to this particular thread.

Damien Charles

Fred said...

The quote “Muslims eagerly link their own” does not make Allah the same god as Jews and Christian. Your link to the WCC press release just greets the world-wide Muslim community at beginning of Ramadan in 2001. It says nothing about Allah as the same god as Abraham. You are just bloviating and boring and using garbage evidence.

Fred said...

Here is a quote for you, there is only one god, and his name is Allah. Ring a bell?

dmarks said...

Damien: Still, you provide no evidence that a majority of Christians believe as you do. As anecdotal evidence piles up here, it more and more begs the question that you need something to prove this claim. And you have provided nothing.

All you have done is give support by describing what a few leaders here and there have done. Nothing at all on what a majority of believes believe.

There is a difference. Let me give you an analogy.

In 2008, the US government passed a bank bailout/handout program called TARP. The majority of the government and President passed this into law. This might lead some to think that Americans overwhelmingly supported this. This is the same logic you are doing in your attempts to mush two different gods into one just because some leaders said it.

Back to TARP. In contrast, the vast majority of Americans opposed TARP. A big difference from the leaders.

This is why it is important to answer this question by looking at what worshippers believe, instead of just the leaders.

----------

And it is even worse than this analogy would have you believe. In the US situation, the average American elects these leaders as representatives... or else they would be even more out of touch.

In contrast, most of the worshippers in the denominations you name are in a situation hardly more democratic than what you have in North Korea (when it comes to choosing church leadership.... hey, we vote for Bush and Obama... but who has ever voted for a Pope?). Which diminishes the chance that the leaders represent the flocks.

So again I ask: evidence.

dmarks said...

Fred said: "Here is a quote for you, there is only one god, and his name is Allah. Ring a bell?"

Correct. That is a typical Muslim view, and it shuts out the deities worshipped by others, such as the Christian God.

Leticia said...

Jersey, well, all I can is at least you have acknowledged that Jesus existed.

DC, no one is skirting around anything you just refuse to believe that Jehovah God and Allah are NOT the same and regardless of how much you try to argue the point, the truth cannot be refuted.

It just can't. I am not sure what priests you speak with but there is a huge difference.

dmarks said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
dmarks said...

leticia: "DC, no one is skirting around anything you just refuse to believe that Jehovah God and Allah are NOT the same and regardless of how much you try to argue the point, the truth cannot be refuted. "

On this, Damien has simply provided a weak argument. He has only provided support from a few clerics (support that is disputed even then), with absolutely no evidence on the beliefs of the people in these denominations.

I wonder what Rev Grigori or whatever his name is will have to say about this.

jez said...

The muslims, jews and christians each claim to revere the God of Abraham. They report His personality differently, but they all describe (corruptions of) the same guy.
So they're intended to be the same, but in execution they turn out different. In other words, you're all right. Champagne?

dmarks said...

"They report His personality differently, but they all describe (corruptions of) the same guy."

Nope. Not according to the faiths. Very different "guys".

Jez, might be interested in this take from an atheist/agnostic 'outsider' perspective.

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/religion/blrel_theism_onegod.htm

Here is part of it:

"Theologically, however, the position is on much weaker ground. If we are going to actually discuss God in any specific manner, then we would have to ask of Jews, Christians, and Muslims "What is this god that you all believe in" - and we'll get very different answers."

It even implies, in the conclusion, that carelessly mushing these three Gods together into one deity (as Damien and others try to do) supports the case that none of them exist at all.

Lisa said...

Wow Leticia post something about Islam and the defenders all come a running.

Leticia said...

Dmarks, Abouna has been keeping rather busy with his apartment complex being refurbished. I don't think he has time to post, but would love to read his comments regarding this.

Jez, nope on the champagne, eeeewww...never liked the stuff, a mocha latte or frappe would be a nice touch.

No matter how much one argues. Muslims worship Allah and he is not or ever will be the God of Abraham. Abraham was a Jew. Jesus was a Jew and the do not acknowledge the Holy Trinity.

Lisa, tell me about it. I had my prayer group pray about this today.

jez said...

Well Leticia, I've cancelled that case of Krug I was sending over to you. Honestly, you try and do something nice...

Leticia said...

Jez, LOL!! Oooops! My bad? I have never liked it the taste of it. Darn!! :)

Anonymous said...

dmarks, "a few clerics"?

I am assuming you say that in jest.

Lumen Gentium is the official congress of Bishops and a conclave (Conciliar) that discusses Church Law. Decisions made and signed off by the Pope are Catechism and technically speaking refuting it could result in excomunication. Though individual (a few) preists may disagree with the Catechism, the reality is that it is the accepted teachings of the Church and respected/followed. Issues like celibacy and gay marriage is well known and can create debate, my guess is the average Catholic does not even think about the subject of God/Jehovah/Allah all being the same Creator.

On arrival I did a bit of reading and emailed the secreatry of a Bishop in Madrid, he acts as secreatry to the Catholic Lawyers Association and is a long time friend and a good theologian. His short email said that the subject is "the Creator", that this was the underlining factor that confirmed it. Though the format is different and disputed, the worhip of the One Creator God is all that matters and thus under Catholic doctrine must be considered as "the People of God" which is a designation that means they worship Him. He also said that it was also the criteria for both the Anglican and Protestant Synods and thus accepted by the World Council of Churches.

Just to "give you the quote" see below and note the important phrase "the plan of salvation
also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the
first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans", here is the entire quote:

..... see below

Anonymous said...

...... from above

The first Conciliar document dealing with Islam was promulgated
on 21 November 1964 by Paul VI and entitled Lumen
Gentium. In paragraph 16 is stated:


"Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related
in various ways to the People of God. In the first place
we must recall the people to whom the testament and the
promises were given and from whom Christ was born according
to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people
remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts
He makes nor of the calls He issues: But the plan of salvation
also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the
first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who,
professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore
the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge
mankind."

In Lumen Gentium, a dogmatic constitution on the Church
(therefore ex cathedra), Islam is recognised as a faith that
believes in and worships the same God as the adherents of
the Roman Catholic Church. This is revolutionary in its implications,
because if Muslims are deemed to know the True God, then their revelation must also be, in some degree, necessarily
true. To worship God, one must know Him, and one
knows Him primarily through revelation.69 This is left open
to question and the Church has subsequently been careful not
to go any further than this.

In the second Conciliar Declaration dealing with the relation of the Church to non-Christian religions, Nostra Aetate,
promulgated on 28 October 1965 by Pope Paul VI, the declaration
states at paragraph 3:

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They
adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful
and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who
has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly
to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom
the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted
to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they
revere Him as a prophet. They also honour Mary, His virgin
Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition,
they await the Day of Judgment when God will render
their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the
dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities
have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice
and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom."

Therefore it is obvious that the Catholic Church through their Catachism states without question and enscribed within Church Law that Islam worships the same God.

Again, you do not have to accept that belief, BUT HAVING SAID THAT, I am absolutely correct that the vast bulk of the Established Churches accepts it.

D Charles

Anonymous said...

Fred,

your being silly.

"There is no God but Allah" is just like saying there is no God but Jehovah. It is a confirmation that there is only the one Creator and that in their language they call Him Allah. Allah is the Arabic word/name for God. That is basic Islam 101. My 12 year old grandson knows that.

I think the rock is getting cold and requires your crawling back under it.

DC

dmarks said...

DC said: "There is no God but Allah" is just like saying there is no God but Jehovah"

Fact check. If this is being said by a Muslim, he or she is referring to a very different God from the Christians Jehovah.

I know this is a traditional Muslim saying. But I suppose that there is a chance that you might be quoting an Arab Christian. Arab Christians use the word "Allah" for their God, a fact that confuses those who do not recognize the fact that the Muslim "Allah" and the Christian "Allah" aren't the same God.

It is a logical fallacy to confuse the two together. Exactly like two wives talking about marrying men named Steve, and then believing without a doubt that based on the name that they married the same man.

"my guess is the average Catholic does not even think about the subject of God/Jehovah/Allah all being the same Creator."

And if they did. If you told them that their God (really the Muslim one) has as his prophet Muhammad, or that God (really the Jewish one) has not sent His Son to earth yet, they would laugh in your face.

dmarks said...

And another fact check that involves some basic arithmetic:

"... "a few clerics"?....

I am assuming you say that in jest.
Lumen Gentium is the official congress of Bishops and a conclave (Conciliar) that discusses Church Law."


Let's see. 5100 Bishops. 1.1 billion roman Catholics. Divide one by the other. That "few" is so small as to hardly count. No, of course I do not jest.

dmarks said...

Damien said to Fred: "Allah is the Arabic word/name for God. That is basic Islam 101. My 12 year old grandson knows that."

Actually, it would appear to most of us here that you are being silly. You are using the fact of two different deities (the Christian God and the Muslim one) having the same name in Arabic as part of a wild claim that the two deities are the same.

It is like believing that Fred here is a caveman from Bedrock also, just because he shares a name with that more famous Fred.

dmarks said...

Damien's mention of Mary in a quotation caused me to look further. It turns out that the Muslim Mary is similar to, but different from the Christian and Carholic figure.

from Wikipedia: "On the contrary, the Qur'an describes that Mary retreated from her people (outside the city), and gave birth to Jesus underneath a remote date palm tree"


from this, it is obvious that the Muslim Jesus.... born under a tree... that they revere as a mere holy man is different from the Christian Jesus in this fashion as well. We know where the Christian Jesus was born, and it was not in the open under a tree.

Fred said...

Being the secretary of a Bishop in Madrid, who acts as secretary to the Catholic Lawyers Association and your longtime friend and a good theologian will get you a cup of coffee if you have a few dollars.
Why take pleasure in *linking itself*, if they are the same? Because they are different.
“professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind."
Yes, *they claim* the god of Abraham as their own. That is not the same as the church saying they are the same god. You can claim anything at all. They claim Jesus is not god. I can say they claim Jesus is not god and still I am not saying Jesus is not god. I’m just saying what they said.
So what, if both say only one god is creator and will only he true one will judge all mankind. This does not mean they are worship the very the same god.

Fred said...

"Therefore it is obvious that the Catholic Church through their Catachism states without question and enscribed within Church Law that Islam worships the same God"

No, you misinterpreted the catechism. You are not someone charged to teach catholic dogma.

Fred said...

There is only one Fred. His name is Fred.

dmarks said...

And according to Damien's logic, all who are named named Fred are the same man.

So Fred, tell me what it was like starring on "The Wonder Years", hunting ghosts alongside Scooby Doo, and also becoming a legend in the name of building bows for bowhunting?

Fred said...

I have so many stories to tell. Where do I start? In the beginning there was Bedrock. And it was good. Yabadabado.

dmarks said...

You going to sing that "I'm Too Sexy" song?

Ehhhh. hope not.

Right Wing Theocrat said...

The end for the Brits started a long time ago between socialism and islam, they're essentially finished as a significant power in the world.

If it's any consolation, the growing muslim population in the UK will be getting essentially a has-been power.

dmarks said...

"The end for the Brits started a long time ago between socialism and islam"

Neither socialism nor islam (theocracy) belong in government at all. Libya had both under Khadaffy. It made the place such a hellhole.