Thursday, March 29, 2012

Former Pakistani dancing girl commits suicide 12 years after horrific acid attack which left her looking 'not human'


A Pakistani former dancing girl left fighting for life by a 'horrific' acid attack has committed suicide a decade after being heavily facially disfigured.

Fakhra Younus, 33, leapt to her death from a sixth floor building in Rome 12 years after the acid attack which she said left her looking 'not human'.

At the time of her attack in May 2000, her ex-husband Bilal Khar was the man accused of entering her mother's house and pouring acid over Younus's face as she slept.

Life-changing: Fakhra Younus, pictured left before the horrific acid attack in May 2000, was left heavily facially disfigured after having acid thrown in her faceLife-changing: Fakhra Younus, pictured left before the horrific acid attack in May 2000, was left heavily facially disfigured after having acid thrown in her face
Life-changing: Fakhra Younus, pictured left before the horrific acid attack in May 2000, was left heavily facially disfigured after having acid thrown in her face

The attack, which took place in front of Younus's then five-year-old son, left her unable to breathe and fighting for life.

Her nose was almost completely melted and she has since undergone 39 separate surgical procedures to repair her disfigured face over the past decade.

The horrific attack also burned off her hair, fused her lips, blinded her in one eye, destroyed her left ear and melted her breasts.

After being rushed to hospital she said, 'My face is a prison to me', while her distraught young son said at the time, 'This is not my mother'.

Disfigured: Younus, left, pictured with supporter Tehmina Durrani, has undergone 39 separate surgical operations to repair the damage done to her face

The mother-of-one moved to Italy after the incident to live in Rome and continue her treatment.

But on March 17 she took her own life, after leaving a message saying she was committing suicide over the silence of law on the atrocities and the insensitivity of Pakistani rulers.
Cleared: Younus's ex-husband Bilal Khar, the son of a wealthy Pakistani governor, was cleared in 2003 of charges relating to the attack


Bilal Khar was arrested in 2002 and charged with attempted murder following the attack, only to be released on bail after five months.

Khar, an ex-parliamentarian and son of a wealthy Pakistani governor, was eventually cleared of the attack, though many believe he could have used his family connections to escape conviction.

After Younus's tragic suicide emerged earlier this month, Khar continued to deny having any part in the attack - claiming in a television interview a different man with the same name had carried out the crime.

Khar claimed his ex-wife killed herself because she didn't have enough money, not because of her horrific injuries.

More than 8,500 acid attacks, forced marriages and other forms of violence against women were reported in Pakistan in 2011, according to The Aurat Foundation, a women's rights organization.

The Pakistani government introduced new laws last year criminalising acid attacks and stating that convicted attacks would serve at least 14 years in jail.

Tehmina Durrani, the ex-wife of Bilal Khar's father, had become an advocate for Younus after the attack, and said the acid attack victim had pledged to bring her attacker to justice when she had recovered.

Durrani said: 'She said, 'When I come back, I will reopen the case, and I'll fight myself," and she was a fighter.'

Durrani said Younus' case should be a reminder that the Pakistani government needs to do much more to prevent acid attacks and other forms of violence against women, and also help the victims.

'I think this whole country should be extremely embarrassed that a foreign country took responsibility for a Pakistani citizen for 13 years because we could give her nothing, not justice, not security,' said Durrani.


I cannot begin to express my sorrow for this poor young woman and sadly she is not the only woman that has been a victim of acid attacks. These attacks are perpetrated by either a husband, ex-husband, brothers, uncles or whatever.

What I find so appalling is that her ex-husband got away with it!! He literally destroyed this woman's body. The pain she must have endured is probably beyond our comprehension, and to think this happens to women who are in the religion of Islam. These aren't isolated incidents, people, it has all of the time. The MSM just won't pick up these stories.

I want to know how anyone can defend this behavior and Islam, that so many claim to be a religion of peace. Maybe for the men, but most definitely not for their women and children.

She fled to a foreign nation for protection and to recover from her injuries.

I pray she is resting in peace.

44 comments:

Anonymous said...

Yet again Leticia you put more into it and paint the wide brush.

As disgusting and tragic event this is, it is pure culture, machismo and corruption (the resulting court case). It has nothing to do with Islam and that has been proven time and time again by the fact that these horrible events also happen outside the Muslim world and just as frequency.

Though I can feel your sorrow, sympathy and anger - I am also angry - the fact remains that your turning it into a religious argument and targetting only the Muslim cases is a travesty! Yes, what your doing is ignoring the countless and in fact larger number of horrible abuse cases from other non-Muslim locations and that is a slap in the face to each and every victim. Your telling them, who cares about you, because your abuser was not a Muslim.

I am fed up with this stupid agenda of hate that is basic bigotry, mostly because of this particular issue. So much BS, blog space and hate-agenda effort has been put in what results in disenfranchising the majority of cultural abuse victims. Why do I know this, because I specialise in social equality law and I do get abuse victims as clients.

So, want some details? How about this type, acid throwing. Acid throwing on the face of a wife or daughter because she did not agree, chose not to marry, did not clean up, cook well enough, slept in, chose not to have sex - happens in many places. India has the highest case of acid, hot oil or scolding water attacks. How about plain old beatings - well that is global but interestingly Nepal (not Muslim) has the highest recorded rate. Rape? Well officially South Africa has the highest per capita rape in the world but it is believed that Papua New Guinea would beat it hands down if they bothered to have records. Then, we can talk about rape in war, the Congo - both of them ROC and DRC has possibly the horrific record of having one in every three women in the war zone being raped!

Yes Arabs are sexist, mesoginist and domestic violence is high, South Asia is worse and that is why India has just as many cases as the entire Muslim world put together EXCEPT blogers, the MSM and agenda-groups like to point out the Muslims.

The reality is that it comes down to getting away with it. Again, it is not Muslim countries using say 'Islam' as an excuse, it is the fact that all developing countries suffer corruption that allows them to get away with it - if it is not hushed up.

Even here in the West, or quasi West if you talk about the Balkan States (such as Serbia), spousal abuse exists but you get away with it or it remains hidden. Murderers and abuses go to jail, thus we only here the court verdict and it does not get much air-time.

So, before you continue, think about all the victims and what is the real cause and not just your pet hatreds. What is the number of say rape victims, home invasions and murders in your country and do they all get their day in court, in the media or on your blog? In the end it is the same, just they get caught, people speak up, corruption is less likely and they use they often say "the bitch deserved it" to justify their reason rather than it was my honor or my culture.

Damien Charles

Anonymous said...

Leticia, try some interesting sites for real details such as DangerPoll that has a section called the Five Most Dangerous Countries for Women.

1. Afghanistan
2. Congo
3. Pakistan
4. India
5. Somalia

Afghanistan we all know about as with Pakistan and Somalia - ultra-conservatives, bad government and corruption, South Asian culture of discriminaiton etc. Note Congo (not Muslim) and India. It should be noted that if we go by numbers and populations, the over 1 billion Indians and the amount of violence is in fact higher than all the others put together except for perhaps the mass rapes in the Congo during the wars there.

http://www.trust.org/trustlaw/womens-rights/dangerpoll/

Even in the US there are issues that should be not ignored because it is not a "Muslim Country":

■Every 9 seconds in the US a woman is assaulted or beaten.
■Around the world, at least one in every three women has been beaten, coerced into sex or otherwise abused during her lifetime. Most often, the abuser is a member of her own family.
■Domestic violence is the leading cause of injury to women—more than car accidents, muggings, and rapes combined.
■Studies suggest that up to 10 million children witness some form of domestic violence annually.
■Nearly 1 in 5 teenage girls who have been in a relationship said a boyfriend threatened violence or self-harm if presented with a breakup.
■Everyday in the US, more than three women are murdered by their husbands or boyfriends.
■Ninety-two percent of women surveyed listed reducing domestic violence and sexual assault as their top concern.
■Domestic violence victims lose nearly 8 million days of paid work per year in the US alone—the equivalent of 32,000 full-time jobs.
■Based on reports from 10 countries, between 55 percent and 95 percent of women who had been physically abused by their partners had never contacted non-governmental organizations, shelters, or the police for help.
■The costs of intimate partner violence in the US alone exceed $5.8 billion per year: $4.1 billion are for direct medical and health care services, while productivity losses account for nearly $1.8 billion.
■Men who as children witnessed their parents’ domestic violence were twice as likely to abuse their own wives than sons of nonviolent parents.

UNICEF reports the following statistics on domestic violence for three countries of CEE/FSU:
• Estonia: 29% of women aged 18-24 fear domestic violence, and the share rises with age, affecting 52% of women 65 or older, according to a 1994 survey of 2,315 women.

• Poland: 60% of divorced women surveyed in 1993 by the Centre for the Examination of Public Opinion reported having been hit at least once by their ex-husbands; an additional 25% reported repeated violence.

• Tajikistan: 23% of 550 women aged 18-40 reported physical abuse, according to a survey.

http://www.stopvaw.org/prevalence_of_domestic_violence.html


"I suffered for a long time and swallowed all my pain. That's why I am constantly visiting doctors and using medicines. No one should do this." Woman interviewed in Serbia and Montenegro.
"He got this gun, I don’t know from who… And he would tell the girls: "I'm going to kill your mother… The day will break and your mother will be dead right here…" I would sleep in a locked bedroom and with a dog inside the room with me. My dog. So he would not kill me". Woman interviewed in Brazil.
"He hit me in the belly and made me miscarry two babies - identical or fraternal twins, I don’t know. I went to the Loayza hospital with heavy bleeding and they cleaned me up." Woman interviewed in urban Peru.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2005/pr62/en/index.html



Damien Charles

Anonymous said...

The Thomas Reuters Foundation survey says that India is the fourth most dangerous place in the world for women to live in as women belonging to any class, caste or creed and religion can be victims of this cruel form of violence and disfigurement, a premeditated crime intended to kill or maim her permanently and act as a lesson to put her in her place. In India, acid attacks on women who dared to refuse a man's proposal of marriage or asked for a divorce are a common form of revenge. Acid is cheap and easily available and is the quickest way to destroy a woman's life. The number of acid attacks have been rising in India and there have been 68 reported acid attacks in the state of Karnataka since 1999.[Most of the female victims suffer more because of police apathy in dealing with cases of harassment as that of a safety issue as they refused to register a police case despite the victim being attacked thrice before meriting police aid after an acid attack.

Indian acid attack survivor Shirin Juwaley founded Palash Foundation to help other survivors with "psycho-social rehabilitation". She also spearheads research into social norms of beauty, speaks publicly, and blogs regularly at Do I Look 'Normal'?.In 2011, the principal of an Indian college refused to have Juwaley speak at her school for fear that Juwaley's story of being attacked by her husband would make students "become scared of marriage". Tom O'Neill of National Geographic reported that acid throwing is also used to enforce the caste system in modern India, where uppercaste individuals often attack Dalits for supposedly violating the order.

"Second Acid Attack in One Week Leaves Woman Scarred" ABC news about acid attacks in America. http://abcnews.go.com/US/acid-attack-week/story?id=11564181

"Similar attacks are more common in countries like Cambodia, Afghanistan and Pakistan, where women are attacked by men who feel emasculated because of marriage refusal or sexual disgrace. These attacks -- whatever the motivation may be -- are increasingly occurring in western countries. "

Interesting, Cambodia is Buddhist....


Damien Charles

Leticia said...

Damien, I know that you love defending Islam and Muslims and see these incidents as isolated and not at all reflecting the religion. But cannot you not for once see that these atrocious attacks on women happen to be Muslim women and the perpetrators are in fact Muslim.

I am fully aware of those who are abused in other nations.

My reason for posting about Islam and the violence is because I am fed up with the hypocrisy that people claim that these incidents don't occur. Just today, a poor woman was strangled to death by her Mother-in-law from Afghanistan, a Muslim nation, for bearing another little girl.

That's IGNORANCE! These backward nations don't even realize that it is the male that decides the sex of a child. That woman strangled the wrong person, not that I am advocating she strangle her son, but just threw it out there.

This so-called religion belittles and dehumanizes all their women and young girls.

I can you give example after example of Muslim men feeling justified in torturing their women for ridiculous reasons.

And, even though this is really none of your business, but I am a survivor of unspeakable abuse, so I would never minimize an abused victim. No person deserves to be harmed in any manner or form by another person.

Anonymous said...

A last point, I recommend everyone read the Danger Poll from TrustLaw.

http://www.trust.org/trustlaw/womens-rights/dangerpoll/

Not only does it show the five most dangerous countries to be a women in but gives some figures that will make the most macho European flinch and put his dead down in shame. I come across material like this regularly but still my stomach churns. My wife no longer lets me bring material home as she will simply spend the night crying.

1152 women are raped EVERY DAY in the Congo - American Journal of Public Health.

100 Million (yes Million) mostly women and girls in India are trafficked in some form , forced work, slavery including sexual, etc.

50 Million (yes Million) girls are "missing" over the last century from this world due to forced infanticide or featucide (simply because girls cost to much and boys are so much nicer and to be proud of).

95 per cent of Somali girls will face genital mutilation.

It just goes on and on.....

Damien Charles

Anonymous said...

Leticia,

firstly, please check your spam, there may be one more post in there.

I am not defending Muslims at all, people are people and the horrible are horrible as much as the honest are honest.

When you say "This so-called religion belittles and dehumanizes all their women and young girls", you are in fact technically and factually incorrect. You do not have to agree, support, believe or even like Islam but facts remain facts and until you get this correct your arguments will always fall down. I know Islamic doctrine well enough from my degree, I know Muslims for most of my life, I worked with Muslims and travel to Muslim coutries for over 32 years and frankly speaking your comment is a lie and I guess it is because you do not know better.

Yes I am sure you can find copious amounts of details of Muslims abusing their wives etc, and frankly speaking the stats speak for themselves, they are not more or less than any other people. If you want a tit-for-tat I can produce MORE from other peoples and countries because there are. I am sure you do not want that. But if you want to count examples then obviously because of sheer numbers, Hindus obviously abuse their females more than Muslims do and us Christians come a close third? It does not work!

Having said that I do fully agree that there should be no denials, hiding of ANY abuse, and yes there are organisations out there that like to diminish those done by Muslims because it is not "politically correct". That should not be enough reason for targetting Muslims though, just that the poltics should not be there.

My point, as always is, point out whatever you like but if you make it out to be Islamic when it is not - such as this - I will point out your wrong, because my goal is that since there are no Muslims here on this blog to do so, and that the facts are wrong here, then I will do it.

Damien Charles

dmarks said...

Leticia: I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the Morocco "you rape her, you keep her" law.

dmarks said...

Damien said: "ape? Well officially South Africa has the highest per capita rape in the world but it is believed that Papua New Guinea would beat it hands down if they bothered to have records."

And actually the rape and slaughter of women was a lot worse under Soviet socialist rule in Afghanistan than under the Taliban, as I recently found out through research.

Anonymous said...

dmarks,

yes I understand that as well. Somehow during that period all the brothels in the USSR had women speaking Pushtu rather than Russian, Czech or Romanian....

As for Morocco, it is not so much that the law was supported but that it was not removed during the recent Family Law changes. Morocco is still the most updated in Family Law from all the Arab Countries but fine tuning is horribly slow there. The case, has not only made international news but has brought the capital Rabat to a standstill. Spanish TV is making a big thing out of it. As for the case itself, it appears that Mother has a lot to do with it. She did send her daughter to a doctor to prove the rape only to find that the daughter had lost her virginity before hand - then confessed to her Mother and the Prosecutor that she had an afair with the same man six months before. It was from that, the old law was envoked and to fix the issue, they were forced to get married. The sad reality is that this can only happen "within families" and in rural areas.

Sad but interesting case

Damien Charles

Right Wing Theocrat said...

That's how women are treated in islam, like dogs. Terrible shame and one reason why pakistan will remain the worthless shithole it is.

christian soldier said...

off thread-
RE: military oaths and speaking out - your post below...

the oath of enlisted military includes the words President-
the oath of officers is "...defend the Constitution..."-and does not have the President included ...
http://carolmsblog.blogspot.com/2011/10/general-macarthur-us-military-to-defend.html
Hope this helps-
Carol-CS

Right Wing Theocrat said...

"....because my goal is that since there are no Muslims here on this blog to do so, and that the facts are wrong here, then I will do it."

muslims love a good dhimmi.

At another blog you Damien claimed - I admire the best of all that has come out of faiths and ignore (and learn) from the negatives of all those faiths - that includes my own.

So can you point to some blogs where Christianity is bashed about where you have defended your own claimed faith as vehemently as you defend islam everywhere?

Anyway seeing as how you are here.

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand. - Qur’an 4:34, Sahih International. Over to you Damien.

Knuckledraggin said...

Shamful!

Always On Watch said...

Bilal Khar was arrested in 2002 and charged with attempted murder following the attack, only to be released on bail after five months.

An example of the misogynistic "justice" so prevalent in Islam.

jez said...

This is just horrific.

"I am fed up with the hypocrisy that people claim that these incidents don't occur."

who claims that, Leticia?

cube said...

Very unsettling case. That she survived 12 years after her horrific attack speaks volumes about her spirit. I hope she's in a better place.

I can only hope her attacker meets an equally horrible end sooner rather than later.

Jersey McJones said...

Leticia, we live in one of the most violent nations on the planet. things like that happen every day in America. Where the hell do you live??? For Christ's sake, can't you see the glass walls around you???

JMJ

Leticia said...

Jez, from visiting blogs and hearing from presidents of the US that claim Islam is peaceful.

Jersey, let me say it, I KNOW that abuse happens everywhere, my eyes are wide open, but these incidents are apparently a natural occurrence because the Qu'ran does not acknowledge women as human beings, my on translation.

Instead of spewing your anger at me why don't you look at those pictures and see what that poor woman endured. Does not anger you in the least or do you support it? I would think you of all people would have sympathy since you have, many times, have to me and people here how much you adore and love your wife. Well, sorry to bust your bubble but not all men see their wives and precious and to be cared for but seen as property.

Damien, I am glad you mentioned the spam, there were quite a few comments in there. But as you can see they have been posted.

Leticia said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Leticia said...

Jez, from visiting blogs and hearing from presidents of the US that claim Islam is peaceful. The media never reports on these situations, they don't want to shed a bad light on Islam.

Jersey, let me say it, I KNOW that abuse happens everywhere, my eyes are wide open, but these incidents are apparently a natural occurrence because the Qu'ran does not acknowledge women as human beings, my own translation.

Instead of spewing your anger at me why don't you look at those pictures and see what that poor woman endured. Does it not anger you in the least or do you support it? I would think you of all people would have sympathy since you have many times have to me and people here how much you adore and love your wife. Well, sorry to bust your bubble but not all men see their wives as precious and to be cared for but seen as property to do with as they wish.

Damien, I am glad you mentioned the spam, there were quite a few comments in there. But as you can see they have been posted.

I just want people to made aware that this is happening and no one is doing a darn thing to stop or protect these women. At least, in the states, there are safe houses, and help for women abused. She had to fee her country to get aid and protection fro that psychotic monster.

I actually have been meaning to post about the rapes in the Congo, but I just don't think I could post the graphic horrors.

Leticia said...

Cube, it breaks my heart.

Dmarks, that's horrid, I have heard of rape victims being forced to married their rapists, and guess what countries that happens in?

jez said...

I don't know about not being covered by the media, this case has certainly been in the papers. There was even an oscar-winning movie about acid attacks last year.

Can you name a blog or president which would claim that acid attacks don't happen?
(The claim "Islam is peaceful" doesn't contain enough information to be either true or false; it's just a vague feel-good platitude. For some reason we the public demand that our politicians make these watery non-statements on a regular basis [we punish them when they don't do it], so we're hardly in a position to complain about it.)

Bob said...

Leticia: That was a very revealing and alarming post. Of course, we have known all along that these countries Damien mentioned in the east are run by barbaric societies, and a good number of them are Islamic. There is no excuse or reason to deflect what is going on in these barbaric Islamic societies.

When Damien tries to compare deaths and attacks on women in the US to those Islamic countries he is simply constructing straw man arguments. The issue is not whether people do bad things around the world, it is that some societies barbaric and observe traditions that their governments and religions, i.e. Islam, condone, and sometimes encourage.

Those Islamic countries, for whatever reason, condone the acid attacks and so-called honor killings. To try to compare those countries to the US is simply denying the problem.

Leticia said...

Jez, you are correct about them not saying about the acid attacks, but mostly claiming that Islam is peaceful. I have been corrected.

Bob, that's what I have been trying to convey. There are men who abuse their women everywhere, but it's not because their "religions" condone it, but Islam does.

Right Truth said...

I cannot imagine (1) being this woman, (2) having to live as she was forced to, (3) considering ending my own life and actually doing it, (4) understanding how Islam can treat women this way.

Debbie
Right Truth
http://www.righttruth.typepad.com

Anonymous said...

People obviously are working very hard at giving the impression that people of Islamic faith are just like everybody else. In fact, they are working way too hard at it. Is it because you can’t judge Islam by what by its good works? There are no good works that you can speak of that is of Islam. The only thing that Islam does is create a people to grovel on the ground to an indifferent deity who doesn’t care to be bothered with petitions. An egghead lecturing people to study history and research statistics to have an option is the definition of obnoxious. People inherently know what evil smells like. They have to be taught to not smell it.

You can call me Fred.

Leticia said...

Debbie, neither can I. And I believe was in painful misery. That poor, poor woman.

Fred, thank you and I agree.

Right Wing Theocrat said...

"The claim "Islam is peaceful" doesn't contain enough information to be either true or false; it's just a vague feel-good platitude."

Yes, it is an empty platitude and there's plenty of evidence that the claim is false.

"For some reason we the public demand that our politicians make these watery non-statements on a regular basis [we punish them when they don't do it], so we're hardly in a position to complain about it."

I don't think that's right, perhaps you are referring to your fellow lefties jez, when you say - we the public - or maybe your Brits are different from us down here, I'm pretty sure they're not.

I can assure you that when politicians in Australia speak out against islam and islamists - like telling them to shove off if they don't like it here - there is no public outcry or backlash against them. Most of the time there is agreement and gratitude for them speaking the truth, there is never any punishment from the public.

When muslims want to build mosques out here, the people on the ground almost always resist it and applaud the politicians who support them.

There is however plenty of caterwauling and gnashing of teeth from the lefties over it. They do squawk loudly but I know they're not a majority and do not represent most of us out here, even if they like to claim that they do.

Right Wing Theocrat said...

Nicely put Fred.

dmarks said...

"When muslims want to build mosques out here, the people on the ground almost always resist it and applaud the politicians who support them."

I guess Australia has nothing like the US "First Amendment" in the Constitution?

dmarks said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
dmarks said...

Damien said: "Even here in the West, or quasi West if you talk about the Balkan States (such as Serbia), spousal abuse exists but you get away with it or it remains hidden. Murderers and abuses go to jail, thus we only here the court verdict and it does not get much air-time."

The Serbian government ordered hundreds of thousands of rapes as part of its war policy during its invasions of Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo. The number of perpetrators (rapists) is in the tens of thousands. And how many of these have been prosecuted? Doing some research, I have found something about how only two Serbs have been prosecuted. And these crimes were often part of a specific anti-Muslim campaign, which was encouraged by the Serbian Orthodxx Church.

Leticia is right to point out such atrocities in the Muslim world, and instances where a culture of shariah and the Islamic clerical establishment encourages this. But yes as Damien says these "also happen outside the Muslim world and just as frequency.

Bob said...

dmarks said: " if you talk about the Balkan States"

Well, I don't think anybody would call the Balkan states normal. This is the place that produced Count Dracula, the legend and the real dude.

When Muslims were conquering the civilized world and converting millions of people to Islam at the point of the sword, that's when the bloody, traditionally violent relations with Muslims began. The Crusades did not happen in a vacuum.

I don't know how the Orthodox Church fits in. Could you furnish us with a link? I don't believe it would be their policy to murder, as their Islamic counterparts practice.

Bob said...

continued...

I meant to say, Serbian Orthodox Church. Apparently, coming to any conclusion about anything in the Balkans is a difficult exercise.

From Wikipedia: " During the few days of the 2004 unrest in Kosovo, 35 Serbian Orthodox churches and monasteries were damaged and some destroyed by Albanian mobs[citation needed]. Thousands of Serbs were forced to move from Kosovo due to the numerous attacks of Kosovo Albanians on Serbian churches and Serbs.[citation needed]"

I believe the Albanians mentioned are Muslims. They are the ones for whom we went to war, and started bombing the Serbs. Perhaps we should have bombed the Albanians, instead.

dmarks said...

Bob: Damien was talking about the "Balkan States", not me.

But anyway.... you said "Well, I don't think anybody would call the Balkan states normal. This is the place that produced Count Dracula, the legend and the real dude."

It's normal for the world. Fiendishness on the level of Vlad Tepes unfortunately is rather common in the world. See Germany in the mid 20th century. Columbus wiping out hundreds of thousands of Taino (part of which included his personally raping little girls). The socialist dynasty in North Korea which sentences babies to a life in prison camps. Torquemada. Etc etc etc.

As for Kosovo in 2004, it never invaded Serbia at all. However, the Serbian colonizers inside Kosovo participated in the rapes and looting and slaughter of tens of thousands of indigenous Kosovars just a few years before. I have no doubt that Kosovo was a little sore that none of these criminals were brought to justice, and went overboard.

Right Wing Theocrat said...

"I guess Australia has nothing like the US "First Amendment" in the Constitution?"

Some of us are under the illusion that we have free speech dmarks, but those of us who follow what's going on know that free speech is something enjoyed only by those on the left and who are politically correct.

The rest of us have to be careful to avoid being sued and bankrupted into silence.

Anyway here's news of more acid attacks in the land following the religion of peace, love, tolerance and all things wonderful, rosy and unicorn-like.

A 12-year-old girl and a 15-year-old boy have been killed in an acid attack in Afghanistan, an official said on Saturday, with witnesses claiming it was because of their friendship in what is an ultra-conservative country.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/-/world/13316274/boy-girl-killed-in-acid-attack-over-friendship

Bob said...

dmarks says, "Bob: Damien was talking about the "Balkan States", not me.
"
I hate it when I do that. Apologies to Damien and you. I appreciate your forebearance.

You also said, "As for Kosovo in 2004, it never invaded Serbia at all."

As a matter of fact, Kosovo rebels did attack Serbia.

Kosovo was a province of Yugoslavia, and then Serbia. The Kosovo Liberation Army was formed from ethnic Albanians (Muslims), that then attacked and executed acts of terrorism on the Serbian government, the Serbs, and the Serbian Orthodox Church. This resulted in a brutal crackdown on ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, and the KLA, which was recognized at the time as a terrorist organization by the US and other Western countries.

The Serbs obviously got the upper hand, but there was no glory or innocence in either the Muslim actions of the actions of the Serbs.

To suggest that because there were bad people in the world doing bad things, this excuses Islam from its murderous teachings, and encouraging Muslims worldwide to indulge in such crimes.

Bob said...

Those darned web edits.

I said, "To suggest that because there were bad people in the world doing bad things, this excuses Islam from its murderous teachings, and encouraging Muslims worldwide to indulge in such crimes." It should continue to say, ...it is a fallacy.

One serial killing does not justify another.

dmarks said...

"As a matter of fact, Kosovo rebels did attack Serbia."

No, they did not.

"Kosovo was a province of Yugoslavia, and then Serbia."

Kosovo was forcibly attached to Serbia early in the 20th century. Like with the rest of this forced together place, Kosovo seceded from Serbia in the early 1990s.

Do you have any evidence of the KLA operating in Serbia? I mean actual Serbia, not "Serbia + its exterior colony"

"The Kosovo Liberation Army was formed from ethnic Albanians (Muslims), that then attacked and executed acts of terrorism on the Serbian government"

The occupying government which Serbia forced on Kosovo. Again, do you have any evidence of the KLA crossing the international border between Kosovo and Serbia to attack the Serbian government in Serbia?

"This resulted in a brutal crackdown on ethnic Albanians in Kosovo"

Actually, the brutal crackdown began in the 1920s, when Serbia began its first major colonizing effort (killing lots of indigenous Kosovars, and settling Serbs inside Kosovo).

"The Serbs obviously got the upper hand, but there was no glory or innocence in either the Muslim actions of the actions of the Serbs."

Actually, there was a major difference between Serbia and the nations it invaded/attacked. The atrocities by Serbia were so over the top. And while atrocities were committed by the places Serbia attacked, they were a drop in the bucket.

lisa said...

This is so sad and so disturbing when I see these things.
Like a few people already stated here this is accepted and encouraged behavior in the Islamic world and yes there is violence against women everywhere,we all know that. The thing that is most disturbing in the Muslim/Islamic world is that the men almost never get punished for their crimes.
I saw a woman from Pakistan once come here for a facial prostheses and did an interview I thinks it was on Oprah where her husband cut out her eyes,her ears,her breasts and her nose.
This is behavior supported by that culture. It is so awful to think that women over there are not safe anywhere.
Where in this country do people get buried up to their waste and stoned to death? this just so...I don't even have the words for it. Or in Iraq when a girl's uncle killed her in front of a group of men for dating a Kurd. She was 17 and he beat her to death with a cinder block and it is accepted behavior,that is what is so disturbing about it,the fact that this barbarism is allowed.It's just so sickening. And it is part of Islam because they kill girls and women to protect the family "honor".
I think I can say Leticia it's not that people don't say it doesn't happen there but the fact that, and especially those on the left, don't condemn it even when it is presented to them. They may acknowledge it but you never hear them say how disgusting it is and if you are a woman especially they should be outspoken about it. No but Sandra Fluke's rights were violated,that they make their priority. Pretending it doesn't exist ignoring it,or not speaking out against it is the same as denying it doesn't go on.
On a positive note I saw an HBO special on this the other day and a women's ex-husband got 2 life sentences for an acid attack on her. First one ever in that country,I hope this is a precedent.

jez said...

Thundercat: you miss the point, which isn't specific to Islam. You'd (possibly not you personally, but the public in general) punish any politician who fails to treat anything eg. Christianity with feel-good platitudes. Whatever it is that you happen to subscribe to, the public cannot tolerate criticism of it. And since different parts of the public subscribe to different things, politicians now cannot openly criticize *anything*.

That's why all our politicians are interchangeable avatars with no discernible opinions or soul. It's our fault. (well, Murdoch shoulders a larger part of the blame than anyone else).

Right Wing Theocrat said...

Mickey, I think you've missed your own point, the post was about islam and you referred specifically to islam in your comment. If you wanted to talk generally about everything, then you should have said so.

Mind you, your statement - Whatever it is that you happen to subscribe to, the public cannot tolerate criticism of it. - doesn't ring true in my experience. Perhaps your definition of a 'tolerant' public is one that just shuts up and nods meekly when faced with criticism.

I always hear politicians making criticism of various beliefs and they are free to say it, that is a form of tolerance, the freedom to speak your mind without fear. No one I know of tries to stop them from saying their piece or tries to 'punish' them in some way, apart from not voting for them that is.

The politicians out here are pretty clear on where they stand on things, well at least the conservative ones.

dmarks said...

Since when has Murdoch been a politician?

dmarks said...

Lisa said: "4. The irony of someone on the far-right playing a liberal"

Iraq has seen the worst of it. For decades it suffered under socialism, with Saddam Hussein, and all that comes with socialism (the materialistic obsession and greed coupled with the socialist demand for unquestioning submission to authority). There's also a lot of influence from hardline clerics, and the legal system of terrorism (Shariah). Also, there is Arab imperialism: the idea that people of Arab nationality need to expand and conquer and crush non-Arab neighbors. Those are some real bad social influences.